 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: TJTG
Date: 2013-11-21 21:15
If you were to be one the panel behind the screen at an audition, would you prefer to hear Mozart as straightforward as possible, or with ornamentation?
There are several recordings out there with and without them. Marcellus certainly didn't, Frost has a single ornamentation from my recollection, and other recordings may or may not have them.
Personally, I feel as though the panel wants to hear your musicianship above all else (and good rhythm), and I'm curious if you think ornamentation might make a person stick out in either a positive or negative way. What has been your experience?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-11-21 21:23
Funny this has come up. I just did an audition in the US and played the Mozart the way I had just performed it in Mexico a week before with ornaments etc. In the comments sheet I got (I was the only one that did get comments in my group) it said that they loved my Mozart. The other comment mentioned the excerpt that I was not happy with which lead to my not proceeding. I knew that anyway during the audition.
So to answer your question I believe that panels want to hear your musicianship especially in the Concerto/a which set you up for the excerpts.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-11-21 21:49
My experience, sitting on a panel, has been that even within one panel there are differing opinions. So you certainly can't please everybody. Play what you believe the be the most convincing version of the piece.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2013-11-21 23:44
I'm in favor of playing to the lowest common denominator. I hate ornamentation unless it's expressly indicated. With this piece, because it is THE standard (with so much baggage, so to speak) there are those who feel it MUST be played without ornamentation - you certainly won't ruffle any feathers playing it that way, whereas if you use ornamentation there's the potential to have some upset judges.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-11-22 13:53
"I hate ornamentation unless it's expressly indicated"
I believe that this is the wrong way to look at it. We shouldn't be asking "Do I like ornamentation in this piece?", but rather "Would the composer have expected ornamentation in this piece?".
Unfortunately many jury members might be asking themselves the former question, so clarinetist04's "lowest common denominator" theory may sadly be the safest approach for auditions.
Post Edited (2013-11-22 13:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2013-11-22 15:05
Liquorice wrote:
> Unfortunately many jury members might be asking themselves the
> former question, so clarinetist04's "lowest common denominator"
> theory may sadly be the safest approach for auditions.
>
Are we talking about an audition for an orchestra position or a solo competition of some kind?
Maybe it's naivete on my part. I'm not sure why an orchestra audition committee would hold deliberate, purposeful ornamentation against a player if the playing were clean, musical and technically secure. I don't know why adding something to the written script would matter in an audition if the execution, sound and musical approach to the basic problems of the material were what the committee members are listening for.
It's probably a different situation if the audition is a competition with a solo performance and money award, Then, I suppose, the tastes and awareness of the judging panel would almost certainly influence the result.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-11-22 22:32
I think that a common misconception among people taking auditions is that "The Panel" has an opinion. In fact, the panel is made up of a number of individuals who have varying, sometimes conflicting opinions. If the majority of the individual opinions leans towards a particular candidate, then this candidate with be chosen by The Panel.
Ideally a candidate's "execution, sound and musical approach" should be judged, regardless of what individual tastes or preferences are. But what I've sometimes seen on panels for both competitions and orchestral auditions are committee members who are unable to get past their own personal (often very limited) preferences of sound and style. And very capable candidates can fall through the cracks because of this.
Of course, these panel members are often just showing their own ignorance (as would be the case with someone vehemently opposed to ornamentation in Mozart), but unfortunately these are the same panel members with decision-making power.
Karl- why would you think that the tastes of a judging panel in a solo competition would have more of an influence that the tastes of a judging panel in an orchestral audition?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-23 02:54
99-44/100% of auditioners do not ornament the Mozart Concerto, even in the slow movement. I once added a D-C to the end of the second phrase (measure 60, at the end of the C half note appoggiatura, resolving down to B), exactly as it appears in the recap at measure 264. http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9f/IMSLP32693-PMLP03144-Mozart_K622_1.Movement_Solopart.pdf The judge severely downgraded me for departing from the score.
Mozart Concerto performances are judged on (1) whether the rhythm is accurate, (2) whether the player is in tune, (3) whether the consecutive notes in scales and arpeggios are matched in volume and tone and (4) whether the player has a pleasing tone.
In high-level auditions, the player is also judged on whether the phrases are recognized and played as such. For example, the first two measures of the soloist's entrance are a group, and the next two are also a group. The second phrase also has a short-short-long structure, ending on an appoggiatura on the downbeat and coming away to the unaccented resolution.
Also, as Tony Pay says, the first movement is based on the interval of a descending third, so it's important to shape it that way from the beginning.
In addition, high-level players are judged on whether they "sing" through the phrases, binding them together and leading the listener on.
All this is much more important than ornamentation.
That said, I learned to improvise ornaments while playing the recorder in baroque music, where slow movements in particular often consist of half notes and whole notes, over which the player is expected to show inventiveness and virtuosity. See for example the written-out ornamented movements in http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/6/61/IMSLP116256-WIMA.c4ca-fbrecc.pdf and http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/6/65/IMSLP63134-PMLP128830-Telemann_-_Sonate_Medodiche.pdf, in which the melodic notes often disappear under the blizzard of ornaments.
I bring this experience to the Mozart Concerto, where I do a good amount of ornamenting in the slow movement. Your fingers have to have the harmony engraved in them so that each ornament fits. A great source for this is Quantz http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/3/39/IMSLP89219-PMLP121922-quantz_easy_fundamental_instructions.pdf. An even better resource is Quantz's book, translated into English as On Playing the Flute http://www.vcisinc.com/flute.htm item #F027. The section on "The Little Essential Graces" on pp. 97-98 is pure gold for anyone who wants to play with understanding, and the following pages of examples are a great source of inspiration for improvising.
Too Much Information? Not, I suggest, when you want to ornament the sacred text of K. 622.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2013-11-23 16:06
"99-44/100% of auditioners do not ornament the Mozart Concerto, even in the slow movement. I once added a D-C to the end of the second phrase (measure 60, at the end of the C half note appoggiatura, resolving down to B), exactly as it appears in the recap at measure 264. http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9f/IMSLP32693-PMLP03144-Mozart_K622_1.Movement_Solopart.pdf The judge severely downgraded me for departing from the score."
That experience aptly expresses the motivation of my post.
"but rather "Would the composer have expected ornamentation in this piece?"
Definitely. I should have expressed my sentiment better. Agreed. How many times do I have to listen to the Star Spangled Banner (I hear it almost every weekend with my job) and listen to it butchered (imo)?
Post Edited (2013-11-23 16:08)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TJTG
Date: 2013-11-23 17:14
clarinetist04> I agree with your sentiment. I think everybody knows it "should be" ornamented, but many people are put off by it in an audition. If I ever feel ready to perform it, which the more I practice it the more I don't think I ever will be, I still do not know what I would do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-11-24 22:46
I suppose the thing to realise is that ornamenting the Mozart concerto is not something you 'just do' any more than playing the written notes of the Mozart concerto is something you 'just do'.
When the Mozart concerto is well played, its phrase structure and its tonal variety are made to seem natural and inevitable. If you find you want to ornament it, then those ornaments have an equally found need to match and extend the meanings of the written notes.
Ornaments need to seem MOTIVATED, just as the notes need to seem motivated.
So if someone complains of your decorations, they are not necessarily complaining THAT you decorated; they may rather be complaining about HOW you decorated. And I'm sure that in the time of Mozart, when ornamentation was much more prevalent, there would have been people who ornamented badly, and people who ornamented well, just as there would have been people who PLAYED badly, and people who played well.
I prefer that 'bad decorators' leave the piece alone -- and I imagine that Mozart might well have thought so too. See:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2004/08/000582.txt
Tony
Post Edited (2013-11-24 23:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
