 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2013-11-20 03:09
Hello...
Just wondering besides blue steel and the normal steel, are they any more available types of Springs made from different metals /alloys available in the market?
http://www.jlsmithco.com/SPRINGS_2
I search the forum and saw that White Gold Springs (used in flutes) are not suitable for clarinet although I'm quite interested in trying it out with an old clarinet just for fun.
Are they anymore types of springs available? Or anyone had any luck with a particular producer?
Respring here is pretty ex so I'm thinking of DIY on my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-11-20 03:14
You can get stainless needle springs, but many people don't like them since they tend to not be as crisp an action as steel.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-11-20 04:57
>> You can get stainless needle springs, but many people don't like them since they tend to not be as crisp an action as steel. <<
Stainless steel springs vary a lot. Some are excellent and some are terrible. I've tried many. I use one type of stainless steel springs that I consider better than blue steel springs. It feels similar but doesn't rust. I've tried some stainless steel springs that I dismissed immediately, they were lousy.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-11-20 12:23
Yes, Stainless springs vary quite a bit. They are also a little weaker in strength for the same diameter. In general this is neither good nor bad. I wouldn't change all your springs without a good reason. It can be time consuming to get the "feel" just right. Due to leverage issues and key design some keys are always a compromise.
Steve Ocone
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-11-20 13:36
There are many different grades and alloys among the stainless steels family. That some SS springs on the market are not satisfactory simply means that the marketer has not investigated the possibilities that exist.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-11-20 13:39
Phosphor-bronze springs are available from Ferree's Tools, and perhaps other supplies as well. They are less stiff than stainless steel so you either have to settle for weaker spring-back or ream out the hole in the post to accept a larger wire diameter.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-20 13:49
My Haynes flute has gold springs. It feels so good that I once explored having them put on my clarinet. Every repair tech said NO.
The reason that the Haynes action feels even and light is because all the keys are light and have the same design, with very short distances between the axle and the pad. Of course Bundy flutes feel terrible, but at least the design permits a good action even if the execution is bad.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-20 14:30
Phosphor bronze needle springs are a complete no-no as far as I'm concerned - the worst thing they do is they break flush with the pillars and can be a bugger to remove due to how soft they are. B&H used phosphor bronze springs on their lower ranking clarinets until sometime in the '70s when they changed to stainless steel. 1010s had blued steel springs.
As flutes have mostly open standing keys (and only four closed standing keys), they don't need to be sprung heavily as they're closed by the player's fingers and flute players want the lightest spring tension for fluidity. So white gold springs on expensive models or stainless steel or phosphor bronze springs on student and intermediate models offer the lighter spring tension required for flutes. Selmer (Paris) flutes were unusual in they had blued steel springs, but they were light gauge.
But white gold may not have the required spring tension suitable for clarinets as they have far more closed standing keys than flutes. The other thing is if a spring breaks, then you're going to be hard pushed to find any clarinet repairers that carry white gold springs and they'll most likely replace it with a blued steel or stainless steel spring.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-11-20 18:38
For many years Leblanc used "gold" springs on their pro clarinets.
They seem to offer a nice snappy action and great corrosion resistance.
The springs on my LLs are all still fine after 53 years.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-11-21 12:10
The "common" carbon steel springs used on clarinets are made from high carbon content steel which can come under various trade names. Depending on what tempering temperature is used after hardening a range of colors can be developed on the surface from light straw color to dark blue. The straw color could be made to look like gold but I don't know if that is what Norman has. A small magnet could be used to tell if they are steel or not.
Bob Draznik
Post Edited (2013-11-21 12:11)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-21 13:25
Leblanc used gold plated springs on their clarinets - even Noblet clarinets had gold plated blued steel springs in the '80s. Sometimes the plating would flake off as the steel rusted.
Buffet S1 and SML saxes also used gold plated steel springs, so it must have been a trend with some of the French makers. But Buffet clarinets always used standard blue steel springs as do Selmer.
I think Yamaha student clarinets may have stainless steel springs (they used to anyway) but their pro and Custom models have blued steel springs. Buffet B12s (made by Schreiber) have always had blued steel springs but the B&H Regent II had stainless steel. Selmer USA clarinets (Bundy, Buescher, Signet, etc.) have stainless steel springs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-11-21 13:49
Chris: I'm curious as to "how" one would know for sure the gold colored substance was really gold or something that just looked gold colored. No big deal but a recent post has raised a similar question about "hard rubber" vs ebonite vs resonite etc etc.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-21 14:11
Ebonite is hard rubber, whereas Resonite, Reso-tone, ABS, etc. are plastic resins, Bakelite and phenol resin are the same thing, just as grenadilla, mpingo and African blackwood are all dalbergia melanoxylon.
The gold plating is applied very thinly to these springs and flakes off like glitter once rust sets into the steel. I'm 100% certain it's gold plate as it has that look about it and doesn't look like titanium or brass or the gold colour some aluminium products are coated with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-11-21 15:10
Chris: and it's not lacquer. I just don't know how anyone could be 100% it's gold without a test for gold. I've been under the impression that Reso-tone has more to do with something other than material......but I'm not 100% certain.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-21 15:23
The way it flaked off was unmistakably metal - it wasn't transparent and looked a lot like gold leaf in its flaky state. Some of it peeled off in large pieces to form a hollow tube. The small flakes weren't easy to remove once they got embedded in my fingerprints.
I was disappointed that I couldn't replace these springs with other gold plated ones to match the others instead of using blued steel springs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-11-21 16:35
Whatever the "gold" surface is on my instrument springs it is still 100% intact after 53 years. Incidentally the flat springs as well as the needle springs appear to have a similar finish. The flat springs are still very "snappy" not at all like phosphor bronze etc.
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2013-11-22 00:03
Hmm... The LL's spring seems interesting. Any idea if there is any supplier out there who carries such stuff?
Yes, most repairs don't suggest white gold for springs on clarinet but I'm just getting the wire to fix to fill my curiosity. Would even try silvr if possible. Partly because I also wish to get more hands-on for such repairs.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-22 01:41
The only source of gold plated blued steel needle springs I know of is MusicMedic.
I don't know any suppliers of gold plated flat springs though.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2013-11-22 03:42
@Chris, what's your opinion of those 'gold' springs as compared to the blue needles?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-22 06:26
It's purely cosmetic - they're both blued steel springs, only the plated ones have a thin layer of gold plated onto them. If the plating gets damaged or worn, the springs will still rust once moisture gets under the plating. Cutting them to length will expose the steel, so in a humid environment this is where moisture will get in.
What you can't do with solid white gold springs is temper them as you can with steel which has been tempered blue through heating in an oven of the correct temperature. White gold and other non-ferrous springs are work hardened by either drawing or burnishing, but you will need heavier gauge white gold springs compared to blue steel for the same degree of tension, but the feel will be different.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mk
Date: 2013-11-25 22:48
I have no idea why anyone would even consider changing from blue steel to another type. Sitting in front of clarinetists with the fastest techniques convinces me that its all about timing of the fingers....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-25 23:17
I've just serviced a Philipp Hammig piccolo where the thumb key spring had been replaced with a stainless steel one that was far too heavy gauge for the purpose - it felt dreadful as not only was it too heavily sprung, but the action felt sluggish with such a short spring.
I replaced it with a much lighter gauge blued steel spring and it was much easier to balance and felt much better - on this piccolo the G# key lowers the thumb keys for high G#, but the link from the thumb key wasn't engaging with the G# key which is just as well as that would've made the G# key ultra heavy. Maybe it was engaged and eventually bent itself out of regulation due to the heavy gauge spring.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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