 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-27 05:31
So, I've been living with some fairly bad intonation problems on my Tosca for some time. From what I understand, it is the natural tendency of the clarinet to go sharp in the low to middle clarion register (C# to F or G). I vent like crazy, but it is still a problem-- that area of the range still runs around 20 cents higher than everything else. I am constantly pulling out and pushing in, since pulling out too much makes the chalumeau register way flat. I feel like I'm going crazy!
I know that barrels can do this and that for tone, but... in terms of bore characteristics, is there a barrel that could fix this problem? For example, what does the Buffet Chadash barrel and its reverse cone taper do? I just play on a 66mm Tosca barrel... but I'm nervous about switching to a 67mm R13 barrel, because that risks making the low notes flat. Any solutions?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-10-27 06:12
There may be some other problem than the barrel with that much sharpness. I have a fairly new R13 Prestige, that should have a similar bore to the Tosca, that is very good on pitch in the lower clarion register and in the entire clarinet. The stock barrel is right on pitch, especially after a few minutes warm up. I wouldn't think of getting any other barrel.
I've seen sharpness in the lower area in the chalemeau register that was minimized by a Moennig barrel. The Moennig and Chadash barrels can also lower the pitch of sharp upper clarion notes but the Tosca should have no such problem.
If the throat tones are ok in pitch, and they should be, changing to a longer barrel will make them too low.
I suppose that some kind of crazy leak might cause or contribute to your situation, pulling the pitch upward. I would check all the tone holes and possibly put a thin coat of laquer on the beveled area and even inside of them. There can be tiny leaks through the wood grain from the hole to the beveled area, even in new instruments. These leaks are common in bassoons and oboes. The dealer I bought a new Loree oboe from in 2006 coated these areas around the tone holes with laquer to eliminate such leaks. I coated these areas on my Prestige R13 and it seemed to play an iota better.
The expensive Gortex pads on the upscale Buffets are a little soft, but they may have a cut or some other problem, so the pads should be looked at carefully. Mine had one with a cut in it from the factory. The deep creases in these kind of pads can collect debris from the clarinet case, making a leak possible.
Good luck!
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-10-27 17:50
Sounds like a mouthpiece problem to me...
If you are "venting" sharp notes, that is also an issue. True venting causes notes to go sharper.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-27 18:01
Buffet supplies cylindrical-bore barrels with R13s (and, I suspect, Toscas). A barrel with a reverse-conical bore (decreasing in diameter a few thousandths of an inch from the top to the bottom) improves intonation. You should at least try a Moennig or Chadash Buffet barrel, or, better, go to one of the custom barrel makers, such as Alan Segal http://www.clarinetconcepts.com/.
Ken Shaw
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-27 18:25
I had the entire clarinet repadded with valentino synthetics a little over a year ago. The factory pads were indeed leaking like crazy!
When I say "venting", I mean shading or adding keys to bring pitch down... I also have tape inserts in most of the toneholes on the lower joint (including toneholes covered by keys). This actually had little to no effect on lowering the pitch...
I don't believe it is a mouthpiece issue. It has gotten worse since switching to a non-13 series M30 last January, but I can remember having to vent on lower clarion things even when I used my Gennusa a few years ago.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-10-27 18:56
The non 13 Series mouthpieces will be SHARPER by a fair degree than the 13 Series and most likely even sharper in comparison with the Gennusa. Although you are a very experienced player and this sounds like a basic problem.
The only other thing I can think to look at is the height of the keys off the clarinet when the pads are open. I recall an overhaul I had of Wurlitzers in Boston were a well meaning (also very gifted tech) made the open pad heights much greater to make the horn play louder. This had a devastating affect on the pitch (as you are familiar with the whole venting thing).
What made the horn play so well when you bought it????
................Paul Aviles
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-10-27 18:59
It has gotten worse since switching to a non-13 series M30 last January
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have answered your own question.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-10-27 19:54
Is this problem NEW to the instrument, or did it gradually develop? Was it a problem when the instrument was first obtained?
Pad heights, register tubes, etc can cause these problems. There are some fine techs in your state....check it out.
If it is a problem that is inherent in the bore, then a new barrel might help.
Disclaimer: I make and sell custom barrels.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-27 21:33
It's always been an issue, but it got less manageable when I started using a mouthpiece that plays most comfortably at A=442.
The local repair tech in Bloomington adjusted the height for the Ab/Eb key on the lower joint so that it wouldn't open as much, and that helped make it manageable. I'll see if he can try that on the key that opens for D as well.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-10-27 21:42
How about getting a mouthpiece that plays at 440? I wouldn't really go about adjusting key hights etc unless the blowing equipment works.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2013-10-27 23:56
Beth, please don't take this the wrong way, but the instrument you play seems to be cursed, or something. Cracking, parts replaced, tuning issues, various mouthpieces. the list goes on.
Might it be the instrument? Would it be better to cut your losses on the Tosca? For as much as one of those things costs, it should darned well be problem free!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-28 01:27
Alas, I have yet to find another M30 that plays as well as the one that I use, and I can't afford to buy a new clarinet. So, I'm stuck with finding ways to deal with all the issues with this darn thing. :(
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-28 03:49
Of course! I was just curious about what these fancy barrels can do in order to improve intonation.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-10-28 07:26
But the barrel is only part of it! I suggest that you look into getting a mouthpiece pitched at 440. If that's not possible then get the Vandoren tuning rings they designed for the Masters mouthpieces and try the medium size to help by putting it over the mouthpiece tenon. I have a feeling that if you try and pull your mouthpiece out you'll be better intune with a 65 or 66 barrel at 440.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-10-28 11:44
First the clarinet must be sealing. Suction tests are not accurate. Carl Thacker (I think his shop is in Normal and he also repairs at the University) probably has a magnehelic pressure gage.
Next have the bore of the instrument checked to make sure that the measurements match where the parts go together.
If some notes are way out of tune compared to nearby notes, it is probably not a mouthpiece or barrel issue.
Make sure you have the proper register tube. This should only be a problem if an enterprising technician changed it after you left the factory. Come to think of it, I have run across one "defective" register tube. I keep all of them I stock. You would probably need to find someone with the same model so they can be compared.
If all that checks out, send it back to Buffet.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-10-28 15:20
Quote:
Alas, I have yet to find another M30 that plays as well as the one that I use
I tend to think that no matter how a mouthpiece plays, tuning is a huge part of the equation. I have tested some mouthpieces that I thought played easily or comfortably and sometimes with a lovely tone, but the tuning knocked them out of any consideration.
I would try others. Vandoren makes a boatload of mouthpieces. I am sure you can find another that will work for you. Alternatively, you could contact Allan Segal, who makes great barrels.
Post Edited (2013-10-28 19:08)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2013-10-28 17:55
1. I believe that the Tosca is built to play at A=442.
2. Using a longer barrel has more of an effect on the shorter tube notes than the longer tube notes. So it makes sense (if you're trying to play at A=440) that the longer tube notes are sharp.
3. I recently tried many new Buffets of various models and I found that, even at A=442, sharpness around the notes which you describe was a problem.
4. In my experience, using a lower pitched mouthpiece has almost exactly the same effect on pitch as using a longer barrel.
5. Reverse taper barrels are made to correct wide 12ths in the LEFT HAND, so they will not help you with these tuning issues.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-10-28 19:14
I think there might be tone hole issues, bore issues, and other problems.
Maybe a trip to Chicago, Columbus, or Phila. or NY is in order
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2013-10-28 23:34
I think you should show your clarinet to a professional repair man.
There's one in Chicago(Evanston), Bill Brannen.
http://brannenwoodwinds.com/
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-10-29 19:27
I've got two really lovey McClune mouthpieces that seem to have small volumes and play sharp on my Buffet RC Bb and my Yamaha A.
When warmed up, I end up with about a 2-mm gap at the tuning barrel of BOTH instruments, and usually a 1-mm gap at the center joint.
The middle gap is "iffy." Some days, I pull there to bring top space E closer to being naturally in tune; and sometimes doing that makes the lower chaleumeau too flat.
The wandering intonation over the length of the horn is more of a problem when I'm practicing alone than when playing in an ensemble --hopefully because I'm improving my ear.
Bob Phillips
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