 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2013-10-27 02:23
What causes biting?
I started playing clarinet again about six months ago. In a previous lifetime I studied saxophone and clarinet. Back then I bit when playing saxophone something awful. I was using a C**, or at the last bit a C*, on a Super Action 80 alto. It was just pain all over, couldn't stand it. Playing the clarinet back then was a dream. I don't remember biting at all. I just loved my setup. I was playing an R-13 with a B45 and Moenning barrel, and Blue Box Vandorens (2 1/2 or 3).
I decided this time to focus on clarinet, and play only clarinet, but I am starting to bite just the way I did on my alto. I'm using the same setup as before, except that for months I played the original R-13 barrel, and have been experimenting with the Moenning for the last week. I'm playing Rico Grand Concert 2 1/2. Just as my tone started getting good, and my chops were strong enough to hold the air for more than 30 minutes to an hour, I started biting.
If I don't bite I either get nothing from the horn because the reed won't vibrate, or the sound is completely uncontrolled. It seems to me that I just can't get a decent sound without biting, but I don't know why. More especially I don't know why I'm doing it on clarinet now, when before I did it on saxophone but not clarinet.
Thank you!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-10-27 03:05
Try dropping your reed strength a bit, perhaps to a 2.5 or even a 2 for a while. If you find that you can play comfortably without biting, give it another few weeks and then go up a half. If you start biting again, back off again.
Tony F.
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Author: beadgcf
Date: 2013-10-27 03:25
I'd also suggest dropping the reed strength temporarily.
Another hint is to put a piece of paper between the reed and the mouthpiece. However far the paper goes down is how much of the mouthpiece you should have in your mouth.
Many people who bite do not have enough mouthpiece in their mouths.
Board-Certified Music Therapist
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-10-27 04:34
Another remedy is to try using a double lip embouchure at least some of the time. It's helped me tremendously.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-10-27 16:48
When my teacher began coaching me on tightening all four corners of my mouth, my jaw started dropping and my clenched teeth started relaxing. I think I must have thought I needed a death grip on my clarinet and to get that I bit hard on my mpc. I also didn't have a firm "hold" on my clarinet with my right thumb (I know it's about balance, not about hold) and used my mouth to stabilize my clarinet. Changing to a Kooiman thumbrest gives me the support I need to allow my jaw to continue dropping and my bite to continue relaxing. Just some more "info" to think about.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-10-27 22:50
>> What causes biting? >>
'Biting' is: playing the instrument using only the muscles that CLOSE the jaw -- that's like using a pair of pliers.
'NOT biting' is: playing the instrument by fixing the aperture of the embouchure, balancing the muscles that CLOSE the jaw against the muscles that OPEN the jaw -- that's like setting a wrench.
Notice that you can RESET a wrench. And notice that a wrench, despite the fact that its aperture doesn't change, exerts varying forces on the something it is holding in reaction to the changing relationship between that something and the wrench as the wrench is used.
So, biting tends to limit the flexibility of the lower lip, which becomes at worst like a piece of dead meat covering the lower teeth.
Whereas, not biting allows real-time unconscious variation of flexion of the lower lip, and real-time unconscious variation of the area of contact between the lower lip and the reed. You can also consciously or unconsciously reset the aperture between top and bottom teeth to take account of the requirements of different musical circumstances.
It's another example of SUPPORT, which in clarinet playing means the simultaneous use of opposing sets of muscles.
Of course, the word 'support' is USUALLY applied to these opposing sets:
[Abdominal muscles/Back muscles]/[Diaphragm]
...as any of a large number of posts by me explain.
Tony
Post Edited (2013-10-27 22:59)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-10-28 01:14
Try forming a very flat chin and keeping the corners of the mouth in like pronouncing "oo" .(as opposed to pulled back or stretched laterally. This is in line with dropping the jaw. Think of the flat chin as stretching downward.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2013-10-28 16:33
Thank you guys. I will try focusing on the embouchure and taking in more mouthpiece. I think I must have reverted to my saxophone embouchure (which all my teachers insisted on, but never worked for me). I used to do this thing on clarinet where I would pull or press my upper lip down somehow, but can't remember how that worked.
If that doesn't work I will try a softer reed. I actually started on harder reeds. It may be that when I got down to a reed that I could actually blow through, but is still a bit hard, I stopped supporting with air and started biting instead.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-10-29 20:34
The original poster wrote:
>> Just as my tone started getting good, and my chops were strong enough to hold the air for more than 30 minutes to an hour, I started biting.
>> If I don't bite I either get nothing from the horn because the reed won't vibrate, or the sound is completely uncontrolled. It seems to me that I just can't get a decent sound without biting, but I don't know why. More especially I don't know why I'm doing it on clarinet now, when before I did it on saxophone but not clarinet.>>
A question I want to ask of participants in this discussion is: what do you mean when you SAY that you are 'biting'?
How do you KNOW that you are, when you SAY that you are?
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-10-29 20:47
And, if you were accused of 'biting' by your teacher, how did he/she explain to you 'what you were doing'?
Tony
Post Edited (2013-10-29 20:57)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-10-29 20:56
And if, without understanding his/her explanation -- if indeed he/she gave one (and so if you're just repeating what your teacher said to you) -- isn't it time to find out what you mean by saying it?
Tony
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-10-29 22:54
To me, biting is when I find myself applying enough pressure to the reed as to damp its vibrations, sometimes to the point where I can't get a note out of the instrument. Also, my pitch sharpens when I bite. It used to cause me problems, but now I recognize the condition and consciously back off if I feel signs of it. I think it's an unconscious attempt to maintain the embouchure when the muscles involved are fatigued.
Tony F.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-10-30 03:07
I second what Tony Pay wrote as well as the suggestions for DOUBLE LIP embouchure and getting some softer reeds that won't vibrate unless you're lower lip and jaw are flexible and "cushioned" rather than forcing against the reed.
I believe that the B45 is hendering your ability to play comfortably, with response and sound under control without having to use excess pressure on the reed\jaw. Such an open mouthpiece requires more bite for response and resonance.
I think you would greatly benefit from practicing double lip embouchure, getting a mouthpiece that is more conducive to a good embouchure, and going back to the Blue Box Vandorens. A vandoren 3 with a more close tip opening should work well for you. I find the lower strength vandoren cane to be a bit more stable than the Rico.
Mouthpiece suggestions: M13 Lyre or M15. There's no harm in doing a trial from one of the online stores. If you hate them, then send them back, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how your sound improves.
OVERALL: Make sure you're acutely aware of what your embouchure should be and find a setup that will allow the embouchure to produce the sound you want. You should be able to play with no embouchure (meaning no pressure from the jaw and just enough lip pressure to close around the mouthpiece) and have a reasonable sound and response. Point being- clarinet is hard enough, find a setup and comfortable embouchure that does as much on its own to get your sound and allow for flexibility.
Setup alone won't do it, good embouchure alone won't do it, practicing won't do it, a teacher won't do it. All 4 have to work together!
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-10-30 14:17
Playing with a soft reed and relaxing doesn't necessarily produce an efficient clarinet embouchure. The corners might be too relaxed. The idea of pulling the chin down and dropping the jaw does more than just stop biting. It makes a certain shape of oral cavity which is good for playing the entire clarinet range. A relaxed "biting" embouchure is not the epitome of a good classical clarinet embouchure. It might get you through a pretty good rendition of Stranger on the Shore however. There's nothing wrong with that but you might have less success with Mozart.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: DougR
Date: 2013-10-30 20:52
It doesn't matter what kind of embouchure or mouthpiece you use if there isn't enough AIR getting into the horn. "It may be that when I got down to a reed that I could actually blow through, but is still a bit hard, I stopped supporting with air and started biting instead."
That's kind of what it sounds like to me, especially the part about "I stopped supporting with air and started biting instead."
I'm tempted to quote the old joke about "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" Doctor: "Then don't do that!!".
ButI think you're on to something with the air support business. If I understand it correctly, you ALWAYS have a strong air pressure going through the mouthpiece (breathing "from your lower back," as I heard Yehuda Gilad put it in a master class). Joe Allard used to conceptualize a three-stage breath from the gut upward, and there are lots of paradigms out there to use to model breath support and velocity (you might take a look at Harvey Pittel's youtube videos on breath support; and, although I haven't seen it myself, Tom Ridenour supposedly has a video in which he likens the clarinet player to an aerosol can, connoting a fairly pressurized stream of air going into the instrument).
Clarinet definitely needs more of that "aerosol can" air pressure than sax does. My teacher has had me use double-lip therapeutically on clarinet in order to experience how much "bite" the clarinet requires (i.e., not very much) and still sound good, and ALWAYS with a solid, supported column of air going into the horn.
So that's MY 2c. Along the line of Tony's posts above, you might try asking yourself, "What is it I THINK I'm trying to accomplish by biting?" … and then find another way to accomplish it.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2013-10-31 02:18
When I say I'm biting I mean that I'm grinding my bottom lip to a pulp. It hurts a lot. Sometimes I'm applying too much pressure and "cutting off" the sound. I'm not aware that I'm going sharp, but may be. If I'm not actually applying too much jaw pressure, at least I'm not cushioning, or helping enough with the lip muscles.
Tony, your analogy with the wrench helped. I combined that with some of the other comments. I kept my jaw open, more mouthpiece, corners in rather than back, focused on supporting with air, and I got a good sound over the range of the horn without biting. Unfortunately my embouchure was shot in 30 minutes.
Does anyone have any ideas of how to strengthen the embouchure? I could try to split my practice up into two parts. Or, would it help if I played for a few minutes, then rested, then played, etc., not so much to play longer that day, but to more effectively strengthen the muscles? Are there exercises I can do when I'm not playing? I know I may just have to be patient.
Thank you!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-10-31 05:02
>> Unfortunately my embouchure was shot in 30 minutes. >>
Well, here's a thing worth thinking about.
Your lower lip rests on your lower teeth. In order to do its work controlling the reed, it must have space to flex; it can't be crammed up against the reed 'like a dead piece of meat', as we've said.
When you set the 'wrench' (the distance between your upper and lower jaw), you have to avoid this restrictive cramming. If the wrench is set too small, your lower lip doesn't have space to flex.
On the other hand, if the wrench is set TOO LARGE, then your lower lip has to flex TOO MUCH in order to do its work. That quickly tires it.
Imagine you're standing on a platform in order in order to push against a sprung trapdoor in your ceiling. (Perhaps someone is walking about in your loft, and you have to make sure that when they step on the trapdoor you can resist it descending:-)
If the platform is too high, you have no flexibility: you're squashed up against the trapdoor.
If the platform is too low, though, you have to stretch to reach the trapdoor, and have no flexibility for the opposite reason.
You're best off with a platform that enables you to be halfway between these extremes, with legs and arms a bit bent so that you can push upwards comfortably to varying degrees -- just the sort of thing that your embouchure needs to do against the reed.
So, set the wrench sensibly. It's just as bad for it to be too open as it is for it to be too closed.
Tony
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2013-11-01 22:24
Tony, Thanks, I tried closing a bit and was able to play for almost an hour before my chops gave out. I'm on the right track now.
Thank you to everyone for their suggestions! I had thought of a more closed mouthpiece, but I thought it would be best not to make any changes until I got my embouchure worked out, and had spent some more time getting comfortable. I will keep trying the double lip embouchure, but figuring that out may be a bit down the road.
Thank you again,
Matthew Simington
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Author: cbordian
Date: 2016-11-20 22:40
In addition to the answers so far, consider your tongue position -- the ol' 'eee' versus 'aah'. If your air speed is being robbed before it gets to the mouthpiece opening then you could be subconsciously biting to make up for that. It becomes especially pronounced when you get above the top-line F. It's important to keep the throat relaxed at the same time as raising the tongue. You should be able to move through the range of the clarinet without having to change your embouchure or tongue position (except maybe altissimo, but stay out of there while working on this). Also, the upper lip is very important (another way of saying some of the other things said in this thread). I never understood how the upper lip could play a role, being nowhere near the reed, but have since realized that the downward pressure of the upper lips supports the corners around where the mouthpiece fits in the embouchure.
There are lots of YouTube videos on this.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-11-21 04:07
Thanks. For the most part, I only bite when I'm tired now. The comment about the downward pressure makes sense. I remember vividly being in college (when I did not bite on clarinet) using a very firm downward pressure with the upper lip. I remember it making me sound better, but I can't remember where I got the idea from. I haven't been doing it the same way, because I couldn't figure out what good it would do. I now play a closer, easier to blow mouthpiece, and the difference must not be as noticeable.
It just happens that I started experimenting with my B-45 again, and I found that the upper lip DID matter, but I couldn't figure out why!
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-11-22 00:23
Mitchell Lurie said to me:
See that wall!
See the hole in that wall!
Your embouchure is like that hole in the wall. It doesn't bite or open too much. It is fixed. Put your mouthpiece in that hole and blow. Take a little bit more mouthpiece in than is comfortable. Good luck!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-22 07:48
Mitchell never said that to me, but then again I already play with a double lip! Seriously, he was a great teacher and a better friend. He had this gift of being able to pick out the very best horns for players, even though the horns leaked so badly. his sound isn't talked about much, but it was a very light French sound, yet very full.
His teeth close up were not straight at all and his bit was like playing with a double lip. A very sweet French sound. Totally different than the American sound, but what is interesting is his mouthpieces had a warmer sound when I played on his setup. His recordings of the Mozart Quintet is one one the finest I've heard. Recorded at Welsley College outside of Boston in his very late 70's.
So part of the trick of avoiding biting is using as much mouthpiece as you can before the reed squeaks and becomes uncontrollable. Biting is often caused by several factors, but the main one is not putting enough mouthpiece into your mouth so you bite down on the reed. Think about that curve where the reeds leaves the window of the mouthpiece. Some players like this window facing to be short, such as Julian Bliss. Then we have the German facings that tend to be long with a close tip opening under 1.0mm.
Added, we have to take note of Eddie Danials who said that he used to play on a more open mouthpiece and he's now around a 1.03mm's. He felt that he was biting too much. If I recall he was using something around a 1.10mm tip. So even in jazz playing you do not need a really open mouthpiece. 1.03 is considered a close facing.
Some double lip players use very open tip openings sometimes, its the entire formation of everyones embouchures. So it takes dedication and a lifetime to get it right and keep it the way you like it the best. If a tooth is pulled, things change; a new mouthpiece, new adjustments must be made. A lifetime of effort.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2016-11-22 08:36
1. Test: try to wiggle the mouthpiece horizontally from left to right and back while playing. If you can't do it, you are biting
2. Try to play a C-major scale in the 2nd register without your upper teeth touching the mouthpiece. You get a pretty good picture, which lip muscles you should be using.
3. Then play adjusting your "jaw-wrench" so, that your upper teeth touch lightly the mouthpiece, but you can still wiggle (1), and use the muscles as in (2).
Done
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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