 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Madelinnneeee
Date: 2013-10-16 17:18
So I was wondering how I could get an Eb clarinet that doesn't suck, but doesn't break the bank. My hs does not have one. I have a very limited income so I'd really want it to be under $1000 or under 900 preferable$$, yet last me through highschool and still sound good/decent. Anything you'd suggest?
Post Edited (2013-10-16 18:00)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-10-16 17:34
There is a Buffet E11 Eb Clarinet. I haven't tried them, but they are less expensive. I would assume that it would need a longer barrel than it comes with, since most R13's do.
Cruise the "auction site", sometimes you can find something decent for less money.
It would be easier to help if you have a price-point in mind.
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Author: lhoffman
Date: 2013-10-16 18:20
A Bundy Eb can go a long way with a decent barrel and mouthpiece. I use a Robert Scott barrel and a Portnoy mouthpiece, nothing fancy. Importantly, the intonation is pretty good, at least until you get into altissimo. But then again, it's Eb, so altissimo will never be great on any horn.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-10-16 18:45
Look for a used Noblet Eb clarinet. They can be quite good.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-10-16 20:27
...another vote for the Bundy. Unfortunately, word got around how useable they are so the aren't that easy to find any more.
--
Ben
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-16 21:13
The C Soprano Clarinet is a far more useful instrument.
Tom Ridenour has one that sells for about $1195.
I've never really seen the point of having an Eb Sopranino. Unless they are played very skillfully, they usually sound shrill and out of tune when used in the high range, which is where this particular Clarinet is meant to be used.
In a full military band only one is needed to take care of the ultra high notes but the Piccolo is more practical and far more pleasant to listen to.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-10-16 22:37
I've never really seen the point of having an Eb Sopranino.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess you have never had to play Rite of Spring...
or Bolero
or Daphnis & Chloe
or Miraculous Mandarin
etc., etc.
One vote here *against* the Bundy. The ones I have tried were incredibly out of tune and it has clumsy key-work. I used to own one when I was a kid. It was so bad my teacher asked to borrow it and promptly "lost" it (yes, he did reimburse me).
I have played several decent Buffet E-11's though. A few years ago you could get a new one for $800.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-17 01:43
Rmk54 "I guess you have never had to play Rite of Spring...
or Bolero
or Daphnis & Chloe
or Miraculous Mandarin
etc., etc."
Which would give you an idea of the limited repertoire of the Eb Sopranino.
My favourite Sopranino Clarinet solo is the one in Gustov Mahler's "The Hunter ' Symphony. (No 1) 3rd Mov. It's in Eb Major. This can be played on the C Soprano and it sounds better but you'd have to play in in 6 flats which for a competent Clarinetist should not be much of a problem.
The C Soprano sounds better in M Ravel's Bolero also.
As 1hoffman has mentioned , there's a real problem with trying to get the Eb Sopranino to sound in tune in it's upper range. (Altissimo) which is the main purpose of the Eb Clarinet's existence. A skilled player with a top quality Sopranino can make this small Clarinet sound Ok, for the rest of us ------------.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-17 07:00
The Rite of Spring / Daphis & Chloe / Miraculous Mandarin.
These are concert pieces that only professional symphony orchestras can really pull off.
As for the rest of us , well pieces such as Ravel's Bolero would be an opportunity to use the Eb Sopranino but the repertoire is very limited.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2013-10-17 11:15
I agree with the recommendation of a Noblet or other quality intermediate e flat clarinet. I have been played on a Martin Freres which has worked well, have played a Penzel Mueller eefer that was wonderful, and can also highly recommend a professional quality Selmer Series 9 eefer (my current horn, though they are hard to find reasonably priced).
I have not played on Bundy or Vito eefers, but they can be had affordably and with a good mouthpiece and barrel can work just fine.
To address some of the negativity in the thread, I wanted to note that eefer can be difficult to play well and should be taken seriously and practiced on its own. It is NOT simply a tiny, cute little clarinet and it comes with its own set of challenges and issues, but also a fair number of rewards.
As for repertoire, there is ample in orchestral music, and especially in wind ensemble literature where e flat clarinet parts are quite standard, and the instrument is even featured quite regularly (e.g., in works by Holst, Grainger, and others).
Bottom line: find a good horn, practice it, and enjoy it. Oh, and get used to people who don't like the instrument, and work hard to convert them into fans of it by playing it well.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-10-17 12:24
The C Soprano sounds better in M Ravel's Bolero also.
------------------------------------------------
I strongly disagree, but I speak from a professional's viewpoint.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-17 14:06
Every orchestra has a player who doubles on Eb. None so far as I know has a player who specializes in the clarinet in C. I can't imagine that even a good amateur orchestra would permit the solos in Bolero, Mahler 1, Symphonie Fantastique or Daphnis to be played on C clarinet.
I've played both Eb and C and found them to be dramatically different.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Puffing Mummy
Date: 2013-10-17 14:13
I have a Buffet E11. It has a very short Barrel. I love it!
Look up my posts under Legere Reeds or Puffing Mummy. I share my ideas there.
A small tuner that fits the Bell is essential, as is seeking alternative fingerings that give a better result.
Eb's do need separate practice. I am lucky enough to play solely Eb in one Concert band, and Bb in another.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-10-17 14:54
Many years back I used to play a metal buffet Eefer in a military band. It was as old as Methuselah and an Albert system, but it played and tuned much better than the E11 Eefer I've played recently. It could be as piercing as a cornet when needed, but also played with a surprisingly mellow tone if that was called for. I loved it. Still do, I souvenired it when it was replaced with a more modern, but thoroughly nasty Selmer.
Tony F.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-10-18 16:17
Why would a high school student need a C clarinet?
Buffet E11 Eefer is your best bet.
Did you ask your HS director if the school can budget/purchase one for the band's use?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-10-18 16:41
I use a C clarinet so that I can play piano and guitar music straight off the page without the bother of transposing. I know the purists will say that transposing is good for the soul, but I'd just as soon avoid the hassle.
Tony F.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-18 21:11
pewd says "Why would a high school student need a C Clarinet?"
For all the obvious reasons as Tony F has stated.
It has to be one of the most useful 'extra' clarinets one can have. At the moment I"m using a C Clarinet for playing the Oboe part in a musical that the amateur theater group that I"m in is performing (Sweeney Todd) I play Oboe also , but this time around I've decided to go easy on myself and use my C Clarinet. The Oboe part is mostly in the high range ( up to high G ) The musical director and fellow musicians love the sound of the C Clarinet.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-10-18 23:29)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-18 21:19
Even though I consider the C Clarinet a far more useful Clarinet than the Eb Sopranino there is the interesting possibility of using this high pitched instrument for playing directly off Eb Alto Saxophone music. And the highest note you'd generally need to use would be the top Saxophone F. (full F Clarinet fingering)
Note that the lowest note of the Eb Sopranino (E) sounds G, the lowest note of the violin. (open G string)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2013-10-19 19:09
They cost more than you are looking to spend, but the Yamaha Eefers are quite good. We use Eb in our concert band quite regularly, and it was fun, playing a couple of Holst pieces that were scored for TWO eefers. (Mars and 1st Suite for band in Eb) It gave me an excuse to play 2nd Eb in the band! It was great fun.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2013-10-20 00:09
I noticed that THAT INFAMOUS AUCTION SITE has an overhauled Noblet Artist Eb for a reasonable price. You might want to check it out.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-10-20 02:51
I played a Leblanc LL Eb for a year in the U of Tennessee band and subbed in the Knoxville symphony. LLs bring low prices, so you might look for one. The one I played (property of the band) had tuning problems, which resolved when I made tuning rings for the top and bottom of the barrel.
Old Selmers are very good. If you can find a CT or a Series 9, grab it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2013-10-20 05:07
I don't want to be nit picky but Mahler 1 is the "Titan", the 3rd movement is "The Hunter's Funeral" or something like that - just the movement. But your point was made.
Ultimately I'm in complete agreement, though, with Ken's statement that they are not in any way the same instrument (okay, they're clarinets, black, cylindrical, etc.), with unique timbres and sound characteristics. I wouldn't dream of subbing C for Eb but Barry's comments about the utility of the C clarinet are completely valid. They do help a lot with playing pieces originally for other instruments (i.e. playing a flute part or oboe part) or a piano line without having to transpose. Nevertheless, if I used a C for an Eb clarinet in an orchestra, I'd be thrown out. You can't do it and I disagree that all those pieces are reserved for the elite orchestras - that's just not true. I've played all of them (except Daphnis - thank God) and have never performed in an arena above amateur.
The idea of the C sounding better simply BEGS the argument of playing what sounds better or playing what the composer intended...and that's been discussed ad nausea on this board over the years and I have no intention of bringing it back here.
So all that said, I'd get the E11. I like the instruments I've played and the bang for the buck is pretty decent.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-20 08:48
Yes Clarinetist04. I stand to be corrected on that. Mahler Sym #1 is the Titan. It's the solo Eb Sopranino in the 3rd Mov (The Hunter's Funeral Procession) that I like.
As for amateur symphony orchestras performing pieces like The Rite of Spring and The Miraculous Mandarin and also Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra for example , I find it a bit implausible that any such orchestra could pull it off.
I was a member of the Novacastrian Arts Orchestra (Orchestra Nova) here in Newcastle NSW Australia. This was/is a 30 to 40 piece orchestra when I was with them (1st or 2nd chair Oboist) and they still perform. They have a web site. (Orchestra Nova Newcastle) Check them out.
This is an amateur symphony orchestra , as in , no one gets paid except the conductor and the occasional 'ring-in ' musician, usually a professional string player or two. To cover the ongoing cost of running this group we all paid annual membership fees. I think it was $25 per year. The rest of the finances came from sponsor donations and ticket sales.
While I was with them , the most advanced pieces we ever performed was G Holst's The Planet Suite and M P Mussorgsky's Night on Bare Mountain (R Korsakov's version ) and also his Pictures at an Exhibition.
We were , and they still are regarded as an excellent amateur symphony orchestra but no way could we have ever performed the pieces that I mentioned earlier. For starters , being an amateur group you have to get everyone to turn up for rehearsals on a regular basis. Remember, most of the musicians don't get paid.
Also , there is no strict audition process to weed out the ' You'll do' standard musician. "You play the Clarinet 'reasonably well" "Good , take a seat and enjoy playing with us". Hence the necessity of bringing in 'ring-in' paid professions when needed to lift the standard.
Perhaps you could direct me to a Utube video of an amateur orchestra performing The Rite of Spring or The Miraculous Mandarin ect. The recordings that I have of these pieces and other more involved compositions are performed by professionals.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-10-20 09:42)
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2013-10-23 13:20
To find an Eefer, ask around. I did so several years ago, including on this site. Long story short, a member here sold me his Yamaha eefer for $400. It's an excellent horn and I've used it professionally several times. My clarinet friends who play in bands and orchestras in the area often ask if they can borrow it.
Sure, the Eb can be shrill, but if you practice enough, you learn to control it. I just used mine in a production of Les Miz, and I was often doubling the lead trumpet part. It was absolutely thrilling! I never thought I'd say it, but I love my Eefer!
As far as Eb vs. C, I've never, ever seen a part written for C sopranino clarinet. On the other hand, Eb parts are not as rare as you might think--in fact, they're quite common. I've played in amateur and professional bands and orchestras all my life, and Eb parts pop up all the time. Modern band arrangements almost always include an Eefer part, so much so that groups often have a clarinetist who specializes in Eb.
If you're going to learn the Eb part on C, why not just learn it on the Eb? I know I'm being a purist here, but it's what several others have said--when you play on a different instrument that what it's written for, it's going to sound different from the way the composer intended. (I had a sax-playing friend who refused to learn clarinet. So when he got hired to play in a musical, he thought he could get away with playing the clarinet parts on his soprano sax. UGH. The sax's timbre was way too bright to play a clarinet part, and obviously could not blend with the other clarinets.)
Personally, I enjoy the challenge of finding the correct instrument and then learning how to play it.
Post Edited (2013-10-23 13:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-23 13:40
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets 001.JPG (702k)
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets 002.JPG (714k)
Having found a fully laden Selmer Eb clarinet, I've been on the look-out for a full Boehm C clarinet. But alas they're rarer than hens' teeth. I've only seen a photo of one which is in the Shackleton collection.
So I've added a LH Ab/Eb lever and forked Eb/Bb mechanism to an old Masspacher clarinet I bought recently. Once I get the keywork back from the platers I'll post photos of how it was when I bought it (a regular 17 key, 6 ring Boehm) and since I added the extra gadgets making it an 18 key, 7 ring Boehm.
Attached is a photo of the Selmer full Boehm Eb - amazing they manage to fit all the extras on there, but Italian makers managed to fit all that on Ab sopraninos!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Pastor Rob
Date: 2013-10-23 21:41
Attachment: image.jpg (870k)
I won this Jean de Blaye eefer a year or so ago for $18.50. It needed some work but was certainly a bargain. I think it might be Selmer stencil since the barrel is a bit longer than those on the Buffets I've seen. There are great deals out there if you look hard enough.
Pastor Rob Oetman
Leblanc LL (today)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-23 22:09
The keys look chunkier than Selmer keywork, but it might be based on the Selmer type in terms of joint/barrel lengths. Looks like a well made instrument.
Did you have the case specially made for you or did you adapt it yourself? The problem with my full Boehm Eb is finding a combination case that will house it - provided the case is wide enough and laid out well enough inside, then the extra length of the joint can be made to fit by altering the insides.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-23 22:38
Jaysne commented "If you're going to learn the Eb part on C, why not just learn it on the Eb? I know I'm being a purist here, but it's what several others have said--when you play on a different instrument that what it's written for, it's going to sound different from the way the composer intended".
That's not quite as true as we may think. In the music of Beethoven for example , there are C Clarinet parts in some of the symphonies ect. Nowadays it's always been accepted that these parts are usually played on the Bb.
Sherman Friedland has commented on this.
"Whenever we encountered a part written for a clarinet in the key of C, we were taught to transpose the part. There are C clarinet parts in some Beethoven Symphonies and Piano Concertos, and of course the C clarinet in the Symphony Fantastique by Berlioz, but these were traditionally simply transposed. The Berlioz Symphony in the last movement, Dreams of a Witches Sabbath hs a long and difficult solo passage written for the clarinet in C, which is usually always transposed to Bb".
Apparently these composers simple choose the Clarinet that would allow the musician to play in the easiest key. Back in those times the Clarinet was not quite the modern keyed instrument that we now use. That is the original idea of having Clarinets in the various tonalities of Eb, D , C , Bb & A . It had nothing to do with the different tonal 'qualities' of each Clarinet type.
However , as we move onto some of the more modern composers such as Maurice Ravel and Gustov Mahler, they definitely had these different tonal qualities in mind when they choose which Clarinet was to be used.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2013-10-23 23:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-23 23:05
Although it still begs the question why Richard Strauss scored for D clarinet in 'Till Eulenspiegel' when it's far more feasible when played on an Eb - how many players have a D clarinet in their lineup? Not many I reckon. Maybe at the time the D clarinet was more readily available in Germany and Eb clarinets were either rare or considered band instruments (as 4 valve fully compensating EEb tubas were until a prominent orchestral tuba player used them and they're now standard in UK orchestras replacing the rotary valve non-compensating FF or CC tubas).
Similarly why he scored for Bb clarinet in his oboe concerto (only the 2nd movement is in Bb Major, the 1st and 3rd movements are in D Major) and went against expectations in 'Four Last Songs' with his use of Bb and A clarinets when it came to the key signatures.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-10-24 00:25
Yes Chris, an interesting question concerning Richard Strauss.
Anthony Baines commented about the D Sopranino in his book Woodwind Instruments and Their History (page 124).
I also read somewhere that it is/was used regularly in the orchestra pits of Italian opera houses.
I think Amati still makes the D.
As Anthony Baines commented, "Players find the D a very much sweeter instrument to handle than the Eb".
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Author: Pastor Rob
Date: 2013-10-24 01:18
I think it is a fine instrument. The case was a new old stock Leblanc that was retrofitted by Fred at Case Closed in Raleigh, NC. I am still searching for the right mouthpiece for it, though.
Pastor Rob Oetman
Leblanc LL (today)
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2013-10-24 01:31
I just remembered seeing a C part in Rigoletto. But that's the only one I've ever come across.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-24 05:55
I think out of the French makers, it's only Buffet and Selmer that currently offer D clarinets since Leblanc ceased to be in this capacity - Amati only list Bb, A, C, Eb, alto and bass clarinets in their current lineup.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-10-25 05:37
"Sherman Friedland has commented... :
'Whenever we encountered a part written for a clarinet in the key of C, we were taught to transpose the part. There are C clarinet parts in some Beethoven Symphonies and Piano Concertos, and of course the C clarinet in the Symphony Fantastique by Berlioz, but these were traditionally simply transposed. The Berlioz Symphony in the last movement, Dreams of a Witches Sabbath has a long and difficult solo passage written for the clarinet in C, which is usually always transposed to Bb.'"
But was Sherman taught to transpose because the Bb was more appropriate for the part or because he and (probably) his teacher didn't have C clarinets and didn't want to spend the money to purchase C clarinets that wouldn't see much use?
Also, with regard to Berlioz, I have to point out that Sherman simply has his facts wrong here. The fourth movement of the Symphonie Fantastique ("March to the Scaffold") calls for C clarinets but, aside from the hero's brief plaintive cry at the end, there are no solos. In the fifth movement (the one Sherman actually references), the second clarinet part, which calls for C clarinet for the entire movement) does have a relatively brief (8-bar) solo near the beginning. However, the long solo is in the first clarinet part -- which calls for Eb clarinet for the entire movement. So, for this work, while both C and Eb clarinets are desirable, the Eb clarinet is essential. The first clarinet solo is not normally transposed to Bb clarinet.
And, BTW, citing Berlioz as evidence that composers "choose the clarinet that would allow the musician to play in the easiest key" is a poor choice. The concert key for "March to the Scaffold" is Bb. This means that Bb clarinets would play the movement in their key of C, while C clarinets must play the movement in Bb. Yet Berlioz calls for C clarinets. Clearly, he was looking for something other than the easiest key here.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2013-10-25 13:16
(Uh oh, here he goes out on his limb again):
Look on auction sites for a used Cundy-Bettoney metal Eb clarinet. These turn up regularly. Many were made for the US military, so would have US, or USN (Navy) or USQMC (Quartermasters Corps) stamped on the bell.
I know that metal clarinets have a bad reputation. But this only applies to a number of mass-produced student models -- e.g. C-B's own Three Star and its innumerable stencils. In reality, most respected instrument makers produced metal clarinets in professional models to the same specs as their pro wooden ones, with the advantage that they'll never warp of crack.
Military winds from the 1940-50s are no-frills pro-quality. In the case of this Eb (and similar CB Bbs) this means excellent musical quality, but a plain sliding barrel (not a telescoping one) and a one-piece body, but the same musical performance as their high end Silva-Bet. Of course, if a proper Silva-Bet Eb comes up (probably without the military logo on the bell), snatch it up as fast as you can, as this would be a real honey! I have a Silva-Bet A, and I find it to be fully as good as my Selmer Bb full-Boehm (also metal!).
I got my Eb about 20 years ago, and immediately fell in love with its beautiful, big & rich tone and excellent response and intonation. Mine came with a Vandoren 2RV mouthpiece (no longer made), which seems to serve it very well; I've not tried another mp on it yet.
A Facebook friend got one of these CB metal Ebs on my recommendation, promptly had it overhauled, and now is thrilled with it!
I recommend this not only because I have one and am happy with it in every way, but especially because these can be found well within the budget you have in mind, typically $200-500. It would normally need an overhaul, in which case I could recommend the tech that did my Facebook friend's.
The only disadvantage with this metal clarinet is that your less open-minded colleagues may look askance at you...!
Klarnetisto
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