 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2013-09-22 19:09
This is a song called The Count of Monte Cristo by Otto M. Schwarz, 2nd clarinet part.
The first photo has all these quarter note trills. Should the b-flats (in both octaves) be trilled up to a C# as per the key signature (a minor third), or should they be trilled up to C natural? And, the A's (both octaves) should be trilled up to B-natural and not B-flat, is that right? (Our conductor asked us to trill them up to B-flat.) And, I assume the E-naturals should trill up to an F# per the key signature and not F-natural?
Next question in the second photo, same song. It says "half tone thrill." Did they mean to write "trill" instead of "thrill?" Would this mean we're supposed to trill only a half-step from E-flat (in the key signature) to E-natural instead of F-natural?
Thanks.
...
Post Edited (2013-09-22 19:10)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-09-22 22:16
It isn't really the key signature that determines what trill notes you use - it's the key itself at the spot in question, which may not agree with the written signature.
In the first example, although I'd be more certain if I could see the score, it seems as though the passage in question is really in D minor instead of D Major. D Minor would have a signature of 1 flat (Bb), so, assuming I'm right about the key here, you'd trill A to Bb, D to E, A to Bb, then from the bottom again, Bb to C, E to F-natural, G to A and A to Bb. There should probably also be a trill on the throat Bb in the first group, which would trill to C.
On its face, I'd guess the Eb in the second example trills to Fb (E-natural). You might confirm that by checking the other instruments playing the trill, but unless the note is supposed to be E-natural (with the natural left out) trilling to F, there's not another way to do a half-step trill (someone typo-ed
"thrill") on Eb. Of course, absent the "half tone" instruction, the trill would normally go Eb to F.
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-09-22 23:38
I believe kdk is wrong.
Trills should *always* be determined by the key signature. The B-flat to C# trill is probably the result of sloppy editing - there most likely should be a small natural next to the trill indicating that one trills to C natural.
The A to B trill seems suspect - one would need to see the context to know whether the trill should be a half or whole step.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-09-23 00:21
There's nothing sacrosanct about a key signature. Some composers don't even use them, and their music isn't necessarily always in C Major or A minor (or D Dorian, etc...). The key center of a piece often changes, especially between parallel or relative major and minor keys.
But, rmk54, I won't argue with you. We probably can't convince each other.
And if I'm actually wrong about the local key center, which I've only guessed at *because* of the B-flats (I have never heard nor played the piece), then my answer will change. If there are F-sharps and C-sharps (or their concert pitch equivalents) in other voices and the B-flats (concert A-flats) are chromatic alterations, then at the very least, the E must trill to F-sharp. The A in that case may trill to B-natural to cause a deliberate cross-relation between the prevailing harmony (key) and the B-flats in the figure (or not).
Probably the best person to ask is the conductor in any case. Unless Johnny wants to argue with him, then objective right or wrong probably is irrelevant to the situation - the conductor gets the last word.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-09-23 01:43
For as long as I've playing professionally, 51 years, a trill has always been determinded by the most currect key signature. The problem is that sometimes the publisher, editor or even the composer forgets to make a small correction. It's unusual for a Bb to trill to a C# but not impossible. I would assume it's a mistake since the other trills are all a full step. I think someone just left out the natural over the Bb. As far as the second question goes, it says a half step trill, that means a half step trill. Eb to E natural.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-09-23 03:05
I am sorry that I can't come up with a clear example, but to Ed and David, I am absolutely certain that if you needed to play a trill on E in the key of D minor, you would trill to F-natural absent a sharp sign above the trill sign. And unless there were some reason to involve melodic minor and play an A to B-natural trill (which would generally be indicated), you would, if the key were D minor, trill to a B-flat. I feel certain in a clearly D minor context, you would play trills using the notes from a D minor scale even if the signature said otherwise. The only examples I can think of off the top of my head are in some of the Baermann etudes in the 4th and 5th books, but most here won't have access to those.
I *can*, if it will add anything to the issue, produce lots of examples of music that is in a key not indicated by the key signature. The key, established by appropriate cadences, is harmony-dependent. If the composer doesn't choose to change the key signature when he modulates (which often - generally - is the case if the modulation is temporary), it doesn't negate the modulation. D minor is D minor even if there are 7 sharps in the key signature. The composer just writes a lot of accidentals (like the B-flats in this example).
Once again, I don't know for a certainty that Schwarz *has* modulated to D minor here, and if he hasn't and the prevailing key is still D major, then the trills should be done in a D major context.
I do think that a trill from B-flat to C-sharp, whether spelled as an augmented 2nd or spelled enharmonically as a minor 3rd (B-flat to D-flat), it would more likely have been notated as a tremolo than a trill. An augmented 2nd trill, as has been said, isn't impossible, but would be unconventional.
Karl
Post Edited (2013-09-23 12:35)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-09-23 04:21
As others have commented, the editing could be better. It would be interesting to know if the composer also wants a trill on the first note of measure 22. I'd also suggest contacting the composer and/or the publisher. If you don't get a response, it would be worthwhile for the clarinets to try the trills both ways. I suspect that the C naturals will "fit" better, but I don't know the piece and could be wrong.
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