 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-10 17:54
I just acquired an old Selmer Bb soprano clarinet that I offered to work over so that the owner can donate it to a local high school. Other than the serial number, the only marking it has is on the bell. It is a script Selmer along with Elkhart--New York. Would this indicate Selmer, U.S.A. rather than Selmer, Paris? On the Selmer, Paris chart, the serial number puts it at about 1930. I collect old Selmers, so this question in just for my curiosity, but if anyone knows the logo, I would appreciate hearing about it.
It looks like it has been sitting in the case forever. It needs pads, cork, key cleaning (they are green but not pitted) and key oil. Other than that, it seems to be in pretty good condition. The owner had taken it to our local "repair shop" for evaluation (I have, literally, never seen a repaired instrument come out of that shop that was playable. It took me a couple of months of spare time to correct a sax they had worked on. I had to strip it down completely and start over. The first job was to straighten both the upper and lower stack pivot rods.). They told her that it was worthless and she was about to trash it when a mutual friend told her that she knew someone who would be willing to fix it up for free so that she could donate it to the high school and get a tax write off.
When I come across a decent instrument for next to nothing, I fix it up and donate it to a school (I already have too many of my own). I figure if I am going to lobby for continuing music education in California, I should be up front supporting the programs.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-10 18:05
The export Selmers had the extra info on the bells along with the Selmer Paris logo.
Mt 1967 Series 9*s both have the export info beneath the Selmer Paris logo on the bells which reads:
SOLE AGENTS
U.S.& CAN.
Selmer (in Gothic)
NEW-YORK
ELKHART
You'll find more info on them here: http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnSelmerParis.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-12 17:47
This instrument does not carry a Selmer Paris logo. It has simply the word "Selmer" written in script with very small block letters below that saying "Elkhart -- New York". As I take it apart, I can just barely make out a similar logo on the lower joint and the serial numbers of the lower and upper joints match. Since there is no Selmer Paris logo that I can find on it, I am assuming, and would like to verify, that it is one of the Selmers made in the U.S. I cannot find any indication that there were ever any other markings above or below the logo I have described in either location. My collection, with the exception of this one, is all Selmer Paris so I am unfamiliar with how those made in the U.S. were marked. Does anyone know how a model designation, if there is one, might be determined. The embossed metal tag on the case is identical to the tags on the cases of my CT and 9. The serial number is four digits and does not include a letter. Could this be one of the instruments made by Henri's brother?
Chris: The chart you identified is useful for some of my other Selmers, but does not include this one. Thanks for pointing me toward it.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-09-12 19:26
I don't recall ever seeing a Selmer Paris clarinet that did not have "made in France" stamped on at least one of it's joints.
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Author: gkern
Date: 2013-09-12 19:58
Bart - perhaps a picture or two might help solve your dilemma. My CT does not have "made in France" stamped on it but does have "FRANCE" between the Selmer emblem and the diagonal script "Centered Tone" on the upper joint.
The bell info by Chris P. is accurate.
Gary K
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-12 20:12
Some Selmer (Paris) barrels have 'Made in France' on them and some don't - likewise with bells.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-12 22:19
I'm sorry, the logos are far too worn to show up in a photo. It might show up with a specialized UV (or single wavelength) setup or lighting that could be set up to just skim the surface, but I don't have the equipment to do that. I have found no markings other than the logos I have described on the bell and on the lower joint. They are quite simple. The only location indication I can see is "Elkhart -- New York". Am I remembering correctly that Henri's brother came to the U.S. and produced some instruments here? If I am remembering correctly, does anyone know what logo design was used on the Selmers produced in the U.S. (It would clearly not say Selmer Paris). I have lots of Selmer Paris logos to compare with and this does not come close to matching any of them. Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember seeing this logo on a mouthpiece that I got rid of because it was missing the beak. I know that this instrument is most likely 1950s or before because the case has a decal on it from a local university which changed it name in the early 1960s. It could be considerably older. The case has the double loop (leather covered rope) type handle that I have on cases I know are from the 1930s.
Again, I can find no evidence that this instrument was made in France. Am I crazy or can anyone tell me about the Selmer clarinets that were made in the U.S.? Both the instrument and the case are marked as Selmer and the keywork is very much of Selmer style. The keys are relatively soft but not nearly as soft and the keys on my model 55. The keys are nickel plated rather than the solid sterling on my 55. Except for obviously having not been used in many, many years, it is in good condition and seems to have been well maintained.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-12 23:45
Thanks, Chris. We may be headed in the right direction. The serial number of this instrument is in the 7700s (Which, if it is an early Signet, has no information available on the page.). The "Selmer" identification is of the same style of single line script as the early Signets shown except without the oval around it. The line from the "r" is drawn back as an underline and the Elkhart -- New York is just below that. The decal on the case is for College of the Pacific (now University of the Pacific). If I remember correctly, among others, that was Dave Brubeck's alma matter. In any event, they have always had a strong music program, so it was probably one of the better instruments available when it was new. If anyone can add anymore pieces to this puzzle, I would love to hear them.
With significant magnification and a good imagination, I can see what might be a few traces of a logo in the appropriate location on the upper joint as well. However, I am unable to identify what the design might have been. Since the serial numbers match, I have to assume that it was similar to those on the lower joint and bell.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-14 04:15
I wonder if this instrument might have been made for the U.S. market in one of the Selmer factories in France that was not in Paris? The register vent tube is raised with no collar of any kind. The low serial number (7700s with no letter) makes it early in the production run. There is no indication of the location of manufacturer and the Selmer logo is one that I only remember seeing once before and that on a mouthpiece. There is no indication that it might be any Signet model, so it doesn't match up with anything on the Selmer U.S.A. information page. There are only a few things so far that I know for sure:
--It is marked with a logo that identifies it as Selmer. The logo is definitely not from Selmer Paris.
--The case carries an authentic Selmer tag.
--It was manufactured after Selmer U.S.A. expanded from New York to Elkhart.
--It was being used before 1961.
--It carries no visible identification that associates it with France.
--The key work is nickel plated and definitely Selmer style.
--It has a very low serial number ( 77xx ) with no letter prefix.
--The speaker tube is exposed and raised under the register key pad.
--It was used by someone who took good care of it (keys oiled, etc.) and, from the wear on the logos, was well used or handled.
--The throat keys are on a three post mounting.
The search goes on. I will attempt to get photos that someone might recognize as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I have two concerts this weekend, so it will probably be next week.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-14 19:20
The Selmer shop in New York was apparently closed in 1951. This would seem to make the instrument prior to that date since it includes a New York reference.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-18 17:05
Here are some photos of the clarinet, the case, and a drawing of the logo. I can find no indication that the logo ever included anything more than I have drawn. The mouthpiece does not give much of a clue. It is a Vandoren 2RV. If anyone can add any more information about this instrument, I would really appreciate it.
For the purists: I have, obviously, been working on the instrument and I reassembled the lower joint without pads for the purpose of this photo. However, it is being handled with great care to avoid any damage to the pad seats.
Post Edited (2013-09-19 19:20)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-20 02:47
Comparing the key work carefully with the photos of a pre-WWII Signet, they appear to be identical (especially the trill key guide, the three post throat key mounting, and the upward bend in the pad cup arm above the right index finger). However, the logo on the bell shows no evidence of a Signet identification or a surrounding oval. The serial number of the pre-WWII Signet on the Selmer, U.S.A. page is about 1100 higher than the serial number of this instrument. Indications are that production at that time was about 3500 instruments per year. Is it possible that Selmer, U.S.A. produced some instruments simply identified as "Selmer" prior to developing the Signet model?
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-09-22 03:59
With magnification and just the right lighting, I have located the same logo on the barrel. It shows no more or less markings than I have shown in my drawing. If nothing else, I now know that it is all original.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-10-02 23:29
My overhaul is finally done and I am still fascinated by the instrument. With the mouthpiece/reed I use on my Centered Tone, it is very responsive, easy blowing, and has a relatively bright tone. It is too bright to blend well with the newer Selmers and Buffets in either of the bands in which I play, but the tone is still quite smooth. It projects well and my wife seems to like the tone better than that of my CT or series 9 (she prefers a brighter tone). My assumption is that it has to be a Selmer U.S.A. from the 1920s. I have found examples from both Selmer Paris and most Selmer U.S.A. for all reasonable periods. However, Selmer U.S.A. did not have examples I could find for the 1920s. This would be the beginning of the George Bundy era prior to development of the first Signet and the serial number would fall into that period. The key work does match some unique features in a photo of the first Signet model. Now that it is functional, I have noticed that the finger positions on the upper and lower joint are less in line than I am accustomed to. The wrists are closer together behind the instrument which forces the instrument to be played somewhat farther from the body.
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Author: DubyaT
Date: 2013-12-16 22:38
Hey Barthx. I think I have a Selmer wood clarinet just like the one you were working on. It was overhauled by someone else, but done right. The customer is having me sell it on consignment. I think it's one of the best clarinets I've ever played. I'm having trouble placing the date. My serial number is 7647 with no letter prefix and no Paris markings and that same Selmer script writing followed by Elkhart - New York. So, these two gals were probably in the factory at the same time. The customer is an enthusiast who bought it from someone else. Does not know the full history of the instrument. He just liked it because it played great. I definitely don't blame him. So, I am having trouble describing and pricing this thing. I'm just going to call it a "pre-Signet American Selmer Classic". How's that for marketing? I'm thinking of keeping it for myself. Thought of getting in a community band and maybe this little dream of a licorice stick is what I need to move forward.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-17 04:31
Sounds like the same instrument. By a process of elimination, my best guess is that mine is exactly as you describe. . . a pre-signet Selmer U.S. As near as I can figure, that would put the manufacturer date somewhere in the 1920s or very early 1930s. As you can tell by this thread, you are the first to even recognize what I have described. I was beginning to wonder if I was crazy. The lady who sent it to me to be worked on just wanted to see if it could be made usable and put into the hands of someone who appreciated it. I agree that it is a really nice player, so I offered to buy it from her. She refused to take more than $50 for it, so it is now in my collection.
Do get into a community band. It's a blast. However, take the time to audition at least a couple. The first one I sat in with was a joke (I eventually had to point out to the lady next to me that Db is fingered a lot like C#). The second one turned out to be a perfect fit for me. It is quality musicians who take the music seriously but, at the same time, know how to have a lot of fun. I have never heard anyone in that group make any sort of negative comment about someone who has not played in awhile and is working on getting back up to speed. Nothing but encouragement.
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Author: Vikingman
Date: 2020-05-10 04:35
Hi I’m new here and not very informed on musical instruments, but I have come across a Selmer clarinet just like the ones you guys are describing. This is the boy info I could fine on it. I kno it was a few years ago wen you were discussing this so I hope this still finds you guys..... my question is did you ever find out anymore info one this piece? And is there a value to it. Mine is as u described but I have silver plated rings, mouth piece cover, reed clamp and sheet music holder. My mouth piece looks to have been glass but is broken. But everything else seems to be in every nice condition and moves freely. My serial number is 79xx..... my case looks very similar to your pics but in a little better condition. any new info would be helpful.
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