 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-08-30 19:12
Okay, got one in my music room now. :-)
As the manual suggests I don't overdo it while breaking it in, I can't tell you too much about its tonal qualities yet, so I shall limit myself to haptic and visual impressions.
Instrument comes in a BAM-style case (just the Uebel logo, dunno if it's an OEM BAM or a knock-off) with built-in straps for either "backpack" or "shoulder sling" mode. Padding very precisely cut, I could probably ship forty eggs around the globe (via UPS, no less) and they'd arrive unblemished. Outer compartment extensible and roomy enough for an A4 note binder.
Mouthpiece (B45, Rovner lig) is stored separately, accompanied by a notice that informs me that hard rubber and silverplate don't go along very well so I should pack the mouthpiece separately or seal it in a ziploc bag when putting it into the case.
Assembly was easy (there's a small vat of La Tromba cork grease), the corks are sanded "just right". No red face, no wobbling joints either. The adjustable bocal is corked (rather than being a sax-style clamp type) and you should be careful when assembling it as it looks somewhat fragile and thin-walled, compared to the sturdy single-vent necks that come with student instruments. Equal care should be taken when attaching the mouthpiece.
I was mildly surprised that I could play all notes up and down with ease, apparently the case did a thorough job protecting the adjustment of the keywork. No "shop after ship" issue here.
The wood is unstained with no noticeable grain and no apparent pore filling. Tenons are not sleeved. No binding, and no wobble, I'll see how it behaves after a while.
The action is even on all keys; on the little finger keys, however, it is somewhat heavy. Little surprise, my pinky and/or thumb has to work against the combined force of five or six springs (I am new to low C basses you see). I shall see how I'll do in the future, or if I have to lighten the action a bit.
The thumb rest is adjustable freely (slotted rest secured by a single screw). The ergonomics are very good, even short-armed people should be able to operate the instrument without strain in the right arm.
There are adjustment screws on many levers and arms. Metal-on-wood and metal-on-metal contact areas are damped with hard white felt rather than cork, except in some timing-critical places like the bridge mechanism. I've seen that on my Jupiter bass and it seems to hold the adjustment well.
Venting appears to be sufficient and even, at least during my initial ten-minute test noodling.
I have no current Buffet or Selmer instrument to compare the keywork layout with; I'll happily take some snaps of interesting areas; just ask.
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Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-30 22:15
Have you got it on trial or have you bought it?
From what I've seen, the keywork, bell and crook are identical to the most recent Buffet Prestige basses (from 1999 onwards), so I don't know if they're copying Prestiges or the keywork pieces/bells/crooks are supplied by Buffet (either as individual pieces or readily made keywork). The pinky keys on Buffet basses are very light and well balanced (the front low D key is feather light compared to Selmer basses due to the long leverage), so maybe your one has the springs set too firm.
http://uebel-klarinetten.de/english/clarinet-Bass-Emperior.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-08-30 22:36
I bought it but have a 30d money-back-guarantee.
Per the lightness of the keys...I'll have another look tomorrow...could be that I forgot to close the E key with the other hand...I'm still finding my way on the low notes, find out what works best etc. Or maybe my pinky needs some hours in a gym...
I remember a different instrument where the action was so light that when you held the instrument horizontally, some keys would close under their own weight. Would the Buffet show this behaviour as well?
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Ben
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-30 22:48
It is common for instruments to come with "heavy" spring tensions. It gives repair technicians something to do.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-30 22:56
Buffet bass keys will remain open when laid down, but they can be set to the point where they nearly fall closed under their own weight.
You shouldn't need to hold down the low E or Eb key to play low D, Db and C if doing intervals between G (xxx|xxx) and any note below it. Best make a diagram of where the touchpieces are so you can refer to it.
Top row right hand keys are - Ab/Eb, F/C, low D
Bottom row right hand are - F#/C#, E/B, low Eb
LH cluster bottom row - C#/G#, LH F/C, LH low D
LH cluster upper row - E/B, (LH Ab/Eb lever) F#/C#
Thumb has three - the one to the left of the thumbrest base is another low D touch, then the low C#/Db is directly below the thumbrest base and the low C touchpiece is below that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-08-30 22:59)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-08-30 23:13
thanks, Chris, I'll check it out tomorrow.
(I know I don't need two hands when playing any note below G, however I was taught to use eg left E when playing a low Eb, just to assist my notoriously undertrained right pinky.)
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-08-31 05:29
In the photo in the link Chris posted it looks similar to a Buffet bass in many ways.
I'm curious how makes this, where is it made and how much it costs?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-08-31 07:50
Officially it is made by F.A.Uebel; of course, no one really knows where the various parts of an instrument are sourced. Maybe the Uebel and the Buffet keywork have a common source, maybe just the design is licensed, maybe it's a complete stencil. If someone has a recent Buffet bass, I'd be happy to post some pictures for comparison.
I paid €5710 ($7550) for it, including shipping, VAT and other import fees.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-31 11:33
You got a good price on it!
To put the Uebel Emperior into context in terms of price (in the UK), here's how it compares to the other big name low C basses:
Amati ACL 692* - £4,095.00
Uebel Emperior - £5,995.00
Yamaha YCL-622II - £6,353.00
Buffet Prestige - £6,924.00
Selmer Privilege - £8,230.00
Prices from Howarth http://www.howarth.uk.com/clarinets.html
* The thumb keys aren't linked to the pinky keys on the Amati low C bass (or Leblanc low C bass) - they are all fully linked on the others.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-08-31 11:55)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-08-31 13:42
>> I have no current Buffet or Selmer instrument to compare the keywork layout with; I'll happily take some snaps of interesting areas; just ask. <<
I'm interested. The interesting areas are: All of them
>> The adjustable bocal is corked <<
Do you mean the part that goes into the upper joint, or the split neck itself? I understood this to mean the neck itself, but Chris' link shows a screw tenon (i.e. a tenon that is tightened by a screw).
>> If someone has a recent Buffet bass, I'd be happy to post some pictures for comparison. <<
Yes, recent enough that the differences are extremely small (e.g. squarer shape to the adjutment screw holders, etc.). If you post photos I can see what's similar or not (more or less).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-31 14:34
Maybe they have the same cork lapped tuning slide as Buffet basses but have also fitted a locking screw for extra security so giving the best of both types. Not that it's really needed as Buffet bass tuning slides are fairly solid as they are and mine doesn't rotate no matter how well it's been greased unless undue force is applied to it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-31 16:14
The crook tuning slide is different as Buffet have a corked slide, but they have a corked tenon which is normal for pro basses. One thing I'm not keen on is the sheet metal saddle for the crook key and bell key (instead of being pillar mounted) which reminds me of the key mountings on some keys on my first alto sax which was a DDR-era B&S (stencilled 'Elkhart' - same as the B&M Champion, Sonora and Weltklang saxes).
Otherwise the keywork looks around 90% identical to my Buffet.
Some words of critical importance - make sure you hold the throat A key down as well as the LH main action keywork when fitting the top joint and lower joint together and separating them to avoid damaging the linkages at the middle tenon. You probably already do this when assembling your other clarinets anyway, but just make doubly sure you do this on your bass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-08-31 20:15)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-31 20:45
I've had a couple of linkages fitted to my Buffet bass to make the C#/G# key fully articulated by having a linkage bar soldered to the pad cup and closed by RH 1 and 2 and also a clutch with adjustment fitted to the LH1 fingerplate linked to the E/B pad cup so LH1 can be raised instead of rolled down when playing in the altissimo, plus an adjusting screw to adjust the regulation between the LH1 fingerplate and the thumbplate (which your Uebel has as standard).
I sent the photos to Steve Sklar and he posted them on clarinetperfection, so here are these photos - excuse the quality and poor lighting as I had just bought a digital camera when I took them (and still haven't got to grips with the thing now!).
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/01.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/02.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/03.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/04.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/05.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/06.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/07.jpg
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP2/08.jpg
So you can see the castings and other key parts in these same locations are pretty much identical. If you look at Uebel Boehm system clarinets you'll also see their keywork is identical to that seen on R13s.
Looking at the photos of the Uebel bass, the crook tuning slide has been reversed on the Uebel - on the Buffet the tenon is on the mouthpiece end while the Uebel has the socket on the mouthpiece end. The Uebel also has an extra adjusting screw on the bell key linkage on the end of the low C lever at the bell tenon. The adjusting screw pips on the largest pad cups are spherical on my Buffet too (eg. Selmer Series 9 style). I'm intrigued why they fitted thin cork in between the trill and side keys as on my bass have plenty of room in between them, so no danger of then clattering or causing any unwanted sympathetic vibrations (as some Buffet Bb clarinets have which is cured by bending the keys so they don't touch).
The top joint definitely has that classic Uebel look being the same diameter all the way along its length with the socket ring being slightly wider in diameter than the top joint, whereas on Buffets the top joint necks in at the top and the socket ring is much narrower in diameter compared to that of the top joint. That's why the flange just above the crook tenon is so wide on the Uebel compared to the Buffet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-08-31 21:02)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-09-01 10:42
Thanks for the photos Ben.
It looks almost exactly the same as the buffet. With a few small exceptions (Chris mentioned most of them I think), the shapes of the keys, etc. are very similar. I don't know if it's just a Buffet copy or if Buffet had anything to do with it (e.g. if they make the keys for them?).
It's hard to tell from photos (the somewhat harsh light makes it even more difficult with instruments) but it looks like the keys of the Uebel are overall a little less refined. A lilttle rougher in how they are made.
If it is a copy, maybe it is strange that they copied some decorations that don't contribute anything.
BTW the adjusting screw that Chris mentioned that is mising from his Buffet, if I understood him right, exists on my Buffet. So they probably added it at some point. OTOH the Uebel seems not to have the bridge adjusting screw (a feature I like a lot).
I will try to take photos of the Buffet for some comparisons if anyone is interested.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-09-01 10:59
per the "refined keys" - quite probably this is the fault of the resizing algorithm which does some post-resize sharpening which doesn't work too well with shiny objects that are only shrunk to say ⅓ of their original size. So if there are rough or jagged rims and borders, they are quite probably over-emphasized in the photos. I're-run this batch and see what gives.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-01 11:27
On my bass there was a plain metal tab soldered to the lower pillar for the LH1 fingerplate that acts as a stopper. I had an adjusting screw fitted to it as the adjustment was originally done with cork only, but good to see Buffet (and Uebel) fit a pillar with an adjusting screw on their basses as that makes regulating the LH1 fingerplate much easier. They fit one of these pillars with adjusting screw to regulate the height of the LH3 fingerplate, so strange theydidn't fit them to the LH1 fingerplate with the earlier versions of Prestige basses with this post 1999 redesign.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-09-01 11:51
I know what you mean about the sharpening and resizing. That's why it's hard to say and could be the reason for maybe (just guesstimating) half of the "less refined" keys. The other thigns don't seem like they are because of the photos (not to do with any sharp lines, etc.) but the shapes themselves e.g. the key cups look like they have a slightly rounder edge that is common with cheaper instruments.
Anyway it would be hard to say for sure unless compared side by side.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-09-01 14:00
> the key cups look like they have a slightly rounder edge that is common
> with cheaper instruments.
Well it is a cheaper instrument. :-)
Re the whole stencilling question - I think that FAU wants/needs to have a foot in the "French Market" door as also in Germany there is an increasing number of players who prefer the French system, therefore sourcing the (raw) keywork from elsewhere seems like a sensible and economical solution.
How does a Yamaha 622's keywork fit in here? Is it more Selmer or more Buffet style, or is it (which I think it is) something completely independent?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-01 14:05
Yamaha keywork is very different to that of both current Selmer and Buffet basses, although their keywork appears to have been based on both earlier Selmers and Buffets, but with Yamaha's own touch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-09-07 15:43
Thanks for the pics, Nitai.
Looks indeed very similar - main difference to my Uebel: no adjustment screws on the bridge, no sleeves on the tenons. Plus, the wood is unstained on mine.
Per the rounded key cups - I have no idea if there are different manufacturing methods (stamped/pressed vs machined for example) - mine look stamped which may be cheaper to manufacture, or they skipped some steps, or maybe it was manufactured in a different shop using different tooling. Maybe they licensed the Buffet keywork but got it raw-manufactured in China - we'll never know.
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-09-07 16:27
Hi Ben
The wood is unstained on the Buffet too. It's just difficult to see in photos (e.g. yours look stained and unstained depending on the photo). I can try taking a better lit closeup photo of the wood like your photo of the logo, when I can get to it. The reason mine looks lke that is that it's dirty... ten years of fingers touching it without cleaning.
There are a few more differences mentioned in the thread plus many more very small ones (e.g. many touchpieces shaped slightly differently, different bumper/linkage materials, etc.).
By the way, the register tube and thumb rest are different because mine are not the originals. The originals look very similar to the Uebel ones.
One thing that would be interesting is if you can measure the diameter of the register tube (its inside hole that is)?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-07 16:40
You can get a low B if you cover the bell vent with the inside edge of your left foot whilst playing!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-09-07 17:30
Chris P wrote:
> You can get a low B if you cover the bell vent with the inside
> edge of your left foot whilst playing!
(invents a sock with a leather pad near the inside edge) ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-07 17:47
Put the blueprints and patent applications away - a normal leather shoe or boot will do.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-09-07 17:51
shorts and a tee will let you operate a bike too, but look what's everyone wearing when pedalling...
We need more "musician wear"...
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-10-24 16:09
Update - yesterday I had the opportunity to have a Buffet 1193 Prestige player sit next to me in rehearsal. In a nutshell - the two instruments are nearly indstinguishable sound-wise. Difference in timbre may have been player/reed/mouthpiece related, but once we got the hang of each other...
(We were asked to play some solo (just the two of us) passage. I could swear I heard only one instrument - so did my neighbour, and so did the director) Same experience throughout the 2h rehearsal.
So if you're on a budget and dream of a Buffet bass...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-24 17:38
Did you both swap basses to see if they played any differently?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-10-31 00:14
okay, we swapped basses for a short noodle. Two observations: the sound is close to being identical. And the Buffet keywork adjustment (spring tension) is quite a bit slicker, or mine is noticeably stiffer.
To be honest, I don't know if the Buffet was recently serviced or otherwise tweaked, but I know for sure that my Uebel was brand new and factory sealed, so I think the old wisdom still holds true: Every instrument, prior to being handed out to a customer, should be custom-adjusted for that specific client.
(friend of mine bought a new RC soprano, and after two weeks of breaking-in she's to see her repairman for some minor tweaks (namely the ring height, my pet peeve))
Plus, I noticed that, now that some bumper corks or felts have a bit compressed of use, some keys start clanking (eg the Ab/Eb keycup touches the RH low D lever, or the C#/G# slaps against some rod) when vigourously operated. To be fair, many of these minor quirks are to be expected during break-in, unless you have generous clearance between neighbouring keys, or stiff corks and so on.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-10-31 02:45
What kind of case does the Uebel come in? The case supplied with the Buffet is pretty cheap and nasty considering the price of the instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-10-31 06:41
Comes in a BAM Trekking case with Uebel logo.
(That Buffet is in an identical BAM case but I don't know if it's original to that inatrument.)
--
Ben
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