 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-08-27 02:50
Neither is better. They are different and suit different needs.
Here is an article that explains the different characteristics of each Vandoren model and may help you decide which best suits you: http://www.vandoren.com/en/fprod/Becs%20de%20clarinette%20Sib%20en.pdf
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-27 03:11
Neither. In the other thread I suggested that the M13 Lyre would probably be more familiar-feeling to you and allow you to transition without a lot of experimentation with reeds and (as you started asking about) ligatures.
Players use both facings successfully. I only think you may have fewer reed issues if your new mouthpiece is more similar in facing shape (tip opening and curve length) to your original equipment plastic mouthpiece, which is most likely closer to the M13 Lyre in both measurements. The best solution, if you have the time and money available, would be to try both for a few days with a variety of reed strengths and pick the one you like better. This is completely an issue of personal preference.
Karl
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Author: Halofreakgirl
Date: 2013-08-27 03:36
Thank you for the advice. I might be able to try an M13, however I won't be able to buy it or the reeds.. I will compare them and research how to fix/adjust reeds.
~Clarinet Is Not A Horn
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Author: hgp_atx
Date: 2013-08-27 03:41
Depends on your mouth. In general I would say M13 Lyre is better but that is just my mouth. I would suggest trying both and buy the one that you like better. My experience with the B45 is that it is brighter sounding than the M13 Lyre, which has a more mellow and warm sound (in my opinion). But that is my mouth. Yours is different, so you could have a completely different experience so its really up to you.
Hugh Pauwels
You are only practice away from you dreams.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-08-27 04:40
In addition to the B45 and M13, you should try the 5RV Lyre, which is a middle-of-the-road design that many people like.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-27 05:41
Halofreakgirl wrote:
> Thank you for the advice. I might be able to try an M13,
> however I won't be able to buy it or the reeds.. I will compare
> them and research how to fix/adjust reeds.
>
Just to be doubly sure, the M13 and M13 Lyre are not the same mouthpiece. M13 is at the opposite end of the spectrum from B45 - it's the least open (since the M14 is no longer being sold). M13 Lyre (it has a lyre symbol - looks like a small harp after the M13 designation) is a little more open.
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-08-27 15:17
It's a difference in the person only in the sense that some bite a lot more than others. This is a striking difference, not a subtle difference (such as an M13 Lyre to an M15).
While "everybody is different" explains people's preferences, I don't think it's all that helpful to anyone in recommending or discussing equipment. It only says that just because someone else plays well on it doesn't necessarily mean it fits you.
That being said, the difference in facing of these two mouthpieces is huge (one away from the closest tip opening vandoren makes to one away from the largest tip opening vandoren makes). As some have said, these are "polar opposites" in vandorens line of mouthpieces.
So, "quickly":
B45: A very large tip opening (119.5), although vandorens consistency makes the 0.5 part kind of funny. A large tip opening will require a softer reed to make it vibrate that distance to the rails of the mouthpiece. The softer reed helps compensate for the inherent resistance caused by such a large tip opening. Even with a soft reed (2.5-3) it requires more jaw pressure for basic function\response etc.
M13 Lyre: The relatively close tip opening (1.02 ish) creates a quicker response and less resistance than the B45. While a closer tip opening requires a harder reed, it doesn't mean it requires a HARD reed. A blue box or V12 3.5 would do the trick for most people. This creates a generally more comfortable platform due to a more predictable response and easier blow-through. With the M13 Lyre, less bite is required to function. Less bite means you don't have to work as hard for the setup to work and leaves you flexibility to vary your pressure and embouchure for different styles of sound and articulation.
Everyone is different and their mouths are different. I would argue (and have argued) that the philosophy of setup is far more significant a factor than differences in mouth shape. Someone who uses a lot of bite would probably close off the M13 Lyre, or end up using very hard reeds. The same person might like the B45 or similar mouthpieces because the tip is so open that it is difficult to close it off (especially when accompanied by a hard reed, (3.5 or higher). This type of setup is not uncommon, but is not efficient. On the other hand, someone who doesn't use excess pressure from the jaw would find the B45 too resistant and inflexible, even with an appropriate reed strength, compared to the M13 Lyre. This is far more significant than how people's mouths are shaped.
The difference in shape of the mouth becomes more significant in the length of facing. Where the bottom lip meets the reed, pushing against the reed and mouthpiece in various strengths, will be more noticeable with where the facing curve starts. For example, someone playing a more open tip with a large overbite would be putting pressure closer to the tip, making any pressure close the tip opening more easily than someone with an underbite. If the facing is longer on the same mouthpiece, this "lever" type pressure from an overbite would make this even easier, closing the tip even more in normal playing. Someone with more of an underbite would find a long facing more unstable, since they aren't able to provide pressure to the reed at a place where it would shorten and control the extra reed vibration provided by the long facing. These differences can be understood on a much more subtle level than the difference of almost 0.2mm. While this number is very small, it is very significant in clarinet mouthpiece tip openings.
In general, an open tip should be accompanied by a longer facing to allow the lever type action of the reed to be freely able to vibrate against the mouthpiece. When a mouthpiece is as open as a B45, you can get to a point of diminishing returns (sound spreads, the feel is unstable). The M30, for example, is very similar in tip opening to the B45, but has a very long facing. This frees up the mouthpiece enough to where people find it comfortable to play. This combination can allow the sound to spread more easily than a shorter facing and makes the open tip\soft reed combination feel more unstable due to this long facing.
Yada yada yada...try them both with a variety of reeds and see what you find. Go with what feels the most natural and comfortable. Over time you'll find the right reeds and get used to the setup, getting the sound that you want most easily.
Good luck!
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-08-27 15:22
In short, M13 Lyre.
M13 lyre is only available in the 440 (13 series) version. I believe the B45 has a 13 series 440 version, but is usually the 442. High or low pitch is a significant consideration.
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Author: joe423
Date: 2013-08-27 16:09
M30?
1975 Buffet R13 Bb Clarinet
1968 Buffet R13 A Clarinet
Pyne Clarion Mouthpiece
Vandoren V12 3.5 Reeds
Vandoren Optimum Ligature
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-27 16:22
But M15, which is in the same ballpark as M13L, is available in both Series 13 and Traditional.
Karl
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Author: MSK
Date: 2013-08-27 16:36
I have an M13 lyre and B45 as well as several other mouthpieces. I have found the M13 to play much flatter than other mouthpieces. In fact it requires a different barrell. If not for this drawback it would be one of my favorite MPs. Definitely try with a tuner before you buy.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2013-08-27 17:44
Maybe it's not true, but I heard many times that the B45 model was created to compensate some intonational/acoustical shortcomings of the Buffet RC bore. The M13 was designed to capture some playing qualities of the legendary Chedeville mouthpieces. However both the design and material is different.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-27 18:46
Most of time, players' facing preferences tend to remain fairly consistent with relatively small variations as they move from one group of mouthpieces to another. Few people will comfortably make a jump from a medium-to-long close-tipped mouthpiece to a B45 or some of the even more open custom makers' models unless they've made a conscious decision to experiment with a drastic change and are prepared for the adventure that's involved as they learn to accommodate it. For most of us, if our playing habits were formed with medium-long close facings, we'll gravitate to similar facings when we try new products. Players who happened to start with a mouthpiece like a B45 will tend not to be comfortable with a closer-tipped mouthpiece, having built their approach and their expectations up to meet the needs of the open tip.
To the original point, it seemed as if Jennifer might in switching to the B45 have inadvertently made more of a jump than she realized or understood the reason for. And in my original opinion, she was jumping to a wrong conclusion that, having replaced a stock mouthpiece and run into problems with it, she now might be able to solve the problems by jumping into a new, more elegant ligature.
In my opinion, the choice of equipment is, as I think Nathan is suggesting, rarely a matter of physical differences and almost always more a matter of personal expectations. What I want to hear may not be what you want to hear coming from our respective setups. What I want to feel in terms of response and resistance and what you expect may not be the same. We make our individual, personal choices based on these individual preferences and expectations, rather than physical characteristics that make one set-up unplayable for some and not for others.
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-08-27 22:18
"...matter of expectations"
I like that, explains the step before learning what the specific change really does or means.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2013-08-28 01:49
This is why players who are not yet established should seek the advice of a good, local private teacher. None of us can possibly guess which mouthpiece will be better for the original poster, or if either of them will be suitable at all. A totally different mouthpiece might be the ideal match, but all we can do here is to guess.
There should be a plethora of decent teachers in the Phoenix/Mesa area who could offer valuable advice for the price of a single lesson. The small price would be worth the price of several mouthpieces!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2013-08-28 01:51)
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