 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ms.ace
Date: 2013-08-03 16:23
Hello! I'm a student player and acquired my first wooden clarinet about 5 months ago, it's grenadilla and I have heard arguments for and against oiling the bore. (I've been playing for 5 years total though.) From the articles I've read and advice from local music stores I think I will go ahead and oil the bore. However I've no idea what kind of oil to use! I've heard you can use peanut oil, lemon oil, that you can purchase oil from actual trees used to make the instruments, and there are synthetic oils as well. Any advice on technique or materials is greatly appreciated!
The clarinet is a Leblanc Noblet Artist Series 45, it is around 40 years old and I purchased it used from ebay. Plays great and arrived in great condition, maybe like 3 scratches, needed the pads replaced. No clue when the last time the bore might have been oiled if at all.
Thanks!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-03 16:48
Do a search on the BB for all the arguments pro and con. I'm sure there will be a reprise here in response to your post, but the result will be even richer (and infinitely more confusing) if you look at the thread going back through several years.
The bottom line is you will get lots of "yays" and lots of "nays" and a lot of players and techs who will recommend oiling only under specific circumstances - primarily when the wood *looks* dried out, usually from long disuse. In the end you'll have to make up your own mind. If you decide to oil, there are oils on the market that have been specifically formulated for the purpose, in particular the preparations marketed by Omar Henderson ("The Doctor's Products") - he will probably respond to this thread. Whatever you do, you have to guard against just making a mess. You don't want to gum up tone holes, damage pads or gunk up the bore with residue.
Karl
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-08-03 16:51
If you wish to use an oil, I suggest walnut oil, available at grocery chains. Unlike some other favorites, it dries without assistance. It's expensive, but a small amount goes a long way. To experiment with it, use your finger dabbed with a little and rub it on the bell- inside and out; then let it dry overnight.
richard smith
Post Edited (2013-08-03 18:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-08-03 17:45
Whatever oil you DO wind up using, make sure to look at the ingredients (not just the big print on the front of the bottle). You need to avoid oils with petroleum distillates. Those will just dry up your horn and break down glues (such as that used for tenon cork).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2013-08-04 17:12
I believe in oiling clarinets only when they are stripped down during and overhaul. That way you can oil, all the wood, not just the bore. You need to coat the wood in oil and leave it on the clarinet for several days, in order for any of the oil to really penetrate the wood and do any good.
I always use almond oil, which is available at health food stores.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
1193 Central!
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-08-07 02:09
(Disclaimer - I sell a branded blend of plant oils containing antioxidants and emulsifiers and genuine Grenadilla oil as bore oils)
The "yeas" and "neys" still exist about oiling but I believe that the weight of scientific evidence comes down on the side of oiling with the right kind of bore oil. Comments from teacher's teachers said that oil did not penetrate Grenadilla wood and still persist today but scientific evidence now proves that the proper plant oils will penetrate it deeply. They just used the wrong oil. Granted that some clarinet wood does not often need oiling and that some wood will never crack but I feel that it is prudent to not insult our clarinet wood with heat, cold, drying, and oil loss.
The natural oil in Grenadilla wood buffers the moisture balance in the wood which is necessary for resonance and reducing drying and structural changes in the wood from the time it was manufactured. This oil, like other plant oils, was designed by Nature to interact with and bind to water and requires much more energy remove moisture and to dry the wood and also maintains wood structural proportions.
Scientific testing has also shown that blends of oils with the proper antioxidants (not Vitamin E which only works on animal fats) and emulsifiers will penetrate the wood. Single plant oils such as Almond oil may often undergo a process (autoxidation) turning them rancid and creates acids which will harm wood. Although many historical concoctions have survived over time because of their intrinsic value the same is not true of some oils used historically to preserve and protect oily woods like Grenadilla.
IMO, petroleum oils (such as the clear mineral oil sold as bore oil), synthetic oils which do not bind to water, and single plant oils without added proper antioxidants are inadequate to protect and preserve Grenadilla wood. The products of scientific research have enriched and enhanced our lives and this same research into wood preservation I feel should be used in our choice of products to use on our wooden instruments.
Technicians are the people we should trust to preserve and protect our instruments and many use oils on the wood either in restoration or preservation. Few that I have talked with will not oil dried wood that has lost oil. Environment, playing conditions, and the wood itself will dictate the rate of oil loss and structural change.
L. Omar Henderson
www.DoctorsProd.com
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-07 12:38
Best to do it in the context of a repair. I do it with the instrument disassembled and when it needs it (the bore readily accepts the oil). I am able the clean the tone holes and tone hole faces this way after oiling.
Steve Ocone
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Author: William
Date: 2013-08-07 15:01
Having over 16 wood, pro level clarinets that have never cracked--and only one that experience upper bore shrinkage, none have ever been oiled. Their bores are as shinny as new and I do not have any problems with moisture accululating in any tone holes.
So, simple answer to original posting......NAY.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-08-07 15:13
Many years ago my repair person in NY, long time ago, who was also the head repair man for the Buffet company in America when Carl Fischer was the importer told me it doesn't really matter if you oil or not as long as you don't live in a dry climate and it just sits around. Just don't forget to cover the closed pads with paper so they don't obsorb the oil on the pads. Do it if it makes you feel better, it can't hurt. Just don't soak it.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: curlyev
Date: 2013-08-07 19:48
I never do it myself, because I'm afraid I'll mess up, but I have it done when my clarinet is taken in for maintenance.
Clarinet: Wooden Bundy 1950s
Mthpc: WW Co. B6 refaced by Kurtzweil
Lig: Various Rovners
Barrel/Bell: Backun
Reeds: Legere 3.75
OKC Symphonic Band (just started this summer)
*playing 22 years (with a 5 year hiatus) and counting*
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-08-08 01:51
Same disclaimer.
Clarinets come in three flavors - ones that will crack not matter what you do, those that may crack under adverse treatment, and those that will never crack no matter what you do or don't do. Unfortunately the flavor is not etched anywhere on the new clarinet. Older clarinets may crack less because they have outlasted the total pack of all clarinets.
Listen to your repair technician about oiling. My locally supported music store has had at least 5% of new professional level clarinets crack within the first year warranty period. A customer that sells more oboes than any other retailer in the US reports 25% less cracking when the oboes are oiled routinely. But, there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics for any viewpoint.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-08-08 14:50
Hear, hear to Omar "The Doctor".
(I am an experienced technician...)
Why not just go for the very best - what was there originally in the timber. (Presumably the timber resisted splitting pretty well when it was alive!)
"Grenadoil" from Doctors Products. (Yes, it is expensive, but cheap for what it is. It is surely about as complicated to make as a top perfume might be!)
For years now I have used nothing less on my customer's instruments.
But I agree with other posters: This really should be left until when the clarinet needs significant servicing. The main reason is that it is pretty difficult to apply oil to the bore and monitor that it is not seeping through tone holes to pads. That is not a good situation. So it is safest to do it with the keys off, so one can see what is going on in the tone holes.
I doubt anybody else on the planet has done as much research into bore oil as Omar has.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-08 17:01
The Doctor wrote:
> ...Comments from
> teacher's teachers said that oil did not penetrate Grenadilla
> wood and still persist today but scientific evidence now proves
> that the proper plant oils will penetrate it deeply. They just
> used the wrong oil.
With complete respect (and no argument intended) I don't think the real issue for most of us is whether or not oil penetrates Grenadilla, but how the wood must be exposed to the oil and for how long.
The manufacturers soak (pressure treat, I believe) the billets at the factory before doing anything else to them. They (the manufacturers) aren't disputing that the oil penetrates. Most of them seem to recommend that the user not routinely oil, by which I'm certain they mean putting a few drops of oil on a swab, running it through the bore to coat it, leaving it overnight and wiping it out in the morning. It seems unlikely that this sort of oiling does much other than maybe cleaning out any oil-soluble deposits on the bore surface (which may be worthwhile in itself, but has nothing to do with cracking).
>
> Technicians are the people we should trust to preserve and
> protect our instruments and many use oils on the wood either in
> restoration or preservation. Few that I have talked with will
> not oil dried wood that has lost oil. Environment, playing
> conditions, and the wood itself will dictate the rate of oil
> loss and structural change.
>
Yes, and when they do it, as several have already commented here, it is generally done to a completely stripped instrument body by soaking it in the oil, not just coating it lightly.
The Doctor also wrote:
> Listen to your repair technician about oiling. My locally
> supported music store has had at least 5% of new professional
> level clarinets crack within the first year warranty period. A
> customer that sells more oboes than any other retailer in the
> US reports 25% less cracking when the oboes are oiled
> routinely. But, there are lies, damn lies, and then statistics
> for any viewpoint.
>
Omar, this seems to be two different issues. Are you saying there is a reason to oil a brand new clarinet - one that has already been well-oiled during the manufacturing process?
Presumably the oboes that are being "oiled routinely" are not brand new (or what does "routinely" mean?). Of course, you have to be careful what a figure like that means (lies, damned lies and statistics). There are several ways to understand "25% less cracking," which could be in reality a very small number of whatever is being counted up.
Still, the overarching answer to ms.ace's question probably should be that she should consult a qualified tech.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-08-08 17:56
I should have added this. I've had my Buffet set for over 45 years, my Buffet Eb clarinet over 50, just sold it to a former student that got into the New World Symphony, my Selmer Bass clarinet for 48 years and my "new" Selmer Signature Bb for about 5-6 years. I've never had a single crack in any of them, includings all my after market barrels and bells. I haven't oiled any a clarinet since I was a student. Unless you do something stupid I don't believe you can do anything to prevent or encourage a clarinet from cracking. Some will, others won't. In my section in Baltimore, one player had a Buffet Bb that had a major crack, one had a minor crack and two players now playing Chadash, sp?, clarinets have had several clarinets crack. I believe three of those clarinets have cracked altogether. Just use commen sense and than it's up to the clarinet itself. I don't believe oil of any type will prevent a clarinet from cracking if it's prone to do so but I don't believe it will do any harm either as long a s you don't soak the pads.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-08-09 03:41
Same disclaimer.
There are several issues.
The woodwind community is slow to change and old wife's tales without any proof scientific or otherwise persist. I brought up the tale that oil does not penetrate wood as one of these tales that have been debunked by scientific methods. Others notions too numerous to count still are used by some players though recommendations from their teachers who got the notion from their teachers bringing 50 years or so of bad information forward.
When oiling I think that most will agree that you only want to replace oil that is lost through evaporation or washed out (since the oil does bind water) thought the bore. I have not taken a poll but my interactions with hundreds of technicians indicates that few actually soak the whole clarinet sans keys in oil.
This should only be done by technicians experienced in determining the length and temperature of immersion. This treatment may be necessary for extremely dried out wood but not the normal clarinet in most shops. The oil for immersion could also be very expensive to keep around.
It is my experience and opinion that the wood can tell you how much oil is needed. Only thin coats of oil are necessary with overnight standing to see if the oil is soaked up by the wood. If thin coats are used there should be little worry about oil dripping onto pads but this is easily avoided by cutting squares of waxed paper and putting them under the "closed" pads. I will also clean the wood prior to oiling because oil in the wood will combine with lint, dust, and other detritus to form a gunk that clogs pores that are useful, IMO, for the exchange of moisture in and out of the wood. Almost all of the wood on the clarinet is accessible with oiled swabs or Q-tips. Removing all the keywork is the ideal but any reassembly brings on of regulation and adjustment issues that most of us are not competent to do. Only complete disassembly will allow cleaning and inspecting the tone holes however.
There is the whole issue of whether oiling somehow prevents or helps prevent cracking. The jury is out on this but enormous stress is applied to wood that shrinks from the configuration that it had during manufacture. Oil does help maintain a moisture balance in the wood and maintains structure.
The example that I gave for oboes, which most will agree have more cracking problems than clarinets, was an experiment by the seller of providing a vial of Genuine Grenadilla oil with each instrument and instructions about applying oil four times per year and offering a free inspection and oiling at the store twice per year during the first year. This seller of a spectrum of grades of oboes has kept his own records over the years of instruments returned for cracking by brand and year and the number of return for free visits. The 25% reduction is his assessment of returns for cracked instruments.
The issue of cracked professional grade clarinets is a straight forward count of instruments returned for cracking during the first warranty year. For statisticians the N=about 300 sales per year - not high enough for .001 confidence but not too shabby. There is no data on oiling of these instruments and a different example obviously than the oboe experiment. Oboes are also not clarinets so it is just an informational study on new clarinet cracking.
About when to oil is a question for technicians but my own observation is that when the bore at the top tenon is grey and dull as opposed to black and shiny then my clarinets seem to soak up applied oil. This is only my own assessment gleaned from years of experience with instrument wood and practical experience as an antique refinishing expert. Again, each piece of wood in your clarinet may have different oiling needs and your playing habits and the environmental conditions factor into oil needs of the wood.
We have heard from several professionals that have never oiled their clarinets for many years so this oiling question is ultimately between you and your trusted technician.
Selling oil for clarinets is not my source of income and started off as a hobby supplying my clarinet playing friends and now most of the oil that I sell goes to oil African Blackwood fret boards of guitars, both new from a couple famous manufacturers using it and from thousands of players world wide that use it on their personal or collector guitars. Again, statistics says that there are many thousands of guitar players for every clarinet player. Bagpipers are coming on strong too.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2013-08-09 07:45
(Slightly off-topic)
I found this youtube by Anton Weinberg of how to oil a clarinet. He's obviously using his own product, and is in the pro-oiling camp, but its still a valid 'how to do it' if you wish to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBWmyBPf9cE
Disclaimer - no link to Dawkes Windcraft except as a satisfied customer.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2013-08-10 18:01
I oil. I enjoy it. It's fun to watch the oil soak into the wood. It's fun to smell the oil. it's fun to smell the wood. I feel productive afterward. Does it do any good? Do I know?
I remember reading an article years ago by Larry Naylor, who used to soak stripped clarinets in a bath of warm (I forget the temperature, but he was very exact about it) oil as part of his restoration process, particularly for "blown out" or otherwise warped instruments; I believe he recommended 2 parts virgin olive oil to one part pharmaceutical-grade sweet almond oil for home use. I used to use this mixture for years, then switched to the Doctor's oil.
I suppose you could say, if you DON"T oil, and the horn cracks, you'll never know if you could have prevented it by oiling. If you DO oil, and the horn cracks, you did your best. And if you don't oil, and the horn doesn't crack, you saved yourself a lot of time, expense, mumbo-jumbo, and paraphernalia.
As people say around here quite often, Your Mileage May Vary.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2013-08-10 18:12
One more thing: if one DOES oil, my understanding is do NOT use anything petroleum based, or mineral oil, only plant-based oils. Also, though this probably should be self-evident, do NOT use rancid oil. The stuff stinks. No fun at all.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-08-10 21:16
I oil occasionally for the reasons mentioned above. But I've also seen warnings about over oiling making the clarinet "stuffy" sounding (Pinot?). Makes sense to me, "water logged" (or oil logged, if you will) wood probably wouldn't vibrate as freely.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-10 21:55
LJBraaten wrote:
> I oil occasionally for the reasons mentioned above. But I've
> also seen warnings about over oiling making the clarinet
> "stuffy" sounding (Pinot?). Makes sense to me, "water logged"
> (or oil logged, if you will) wood probably wouldn't vibrate as
> freely.
>
> Laurie
>
Well, since you've brought it up, I think one of the issues here, one which is however beyond my expertise to argue, may be whether or not the instrument body (or any other part of the physical setup other than the reed) actually *does* or is supposed to vibrate, freely or otherwise. My only glimmer of an idea about this is that, if the clarinet vibrates, it is absorbing - using - some of the sound energy being generated within the air column. I can only imagine intuitively that whatever energy is used to make the clarinet body vibrate is not getting out into the air and reaching the audience.
It's a whole other thread involving detailed acoustical physics, but your post brought it to mind.
Karl
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-08-11 01:11
Perhaps you prefer the sound of certain frequencies being absorbed more than others (if a material can do that).
Post Edited (2013-08-11 01:12)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-08-11 01:18
DougR wrote "Also, though this probably should be self-evident, do NOT use rancid oil. The stuff stinks. No fun at all."
That should surely also include any oil that may go rancid in the next few years.
And that surely includes most if not all vegetable oils unless a long-term stabilizer is used. We are assured by Omar that vitamin E, the most common stabilizer added to vegetable oils, is not up to this task.
Solution: Use Omar's Grenadoil, where the issues have been dealt with methodically and scientifically.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-08-11 02:29
I remember my old repairman used to tell me that Buffet went back and forth on the issue over the years. He had a running joke with the rep where every time the rep came by we would ask him "so, are we oiling?" and the answer kept changing, depending on their current philosophy.
Lots of good info above, so I really have nothing more to add.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-08-11 05:47
KDK wrote:
>Well, since you've brought it up, I think one of the issues here, one which is
>however beyond my expertise to argue, may be whether or not the
>instrument body (or any other part of the physical setup other than the
>reed) actually *does* or is supposed to vibrate, freely or otherwise.
Karl,
It's certainly beyond my scope of knowledge as well, I should have guessed it would be a matter of controversy. I made assumptions: If there are two wooden professional level clarinets, same model, cut to the the exact same specs, and one sounds better than the other (as play tested in the shop by a single player using the same mouthpiece and reed setup), then the only variable is the wood. Difference in quality? density? grain pattern? I don't know. Maybe vibration is the wrong term, but something happens to affect the tone quality when the air passes over the wood inside the instrument.
Back to the topic, Pinot claims that an over oiled clarinet sounds stuffy. If this is correct, then somehow it changes how the wood interacts with the air. Again, this is just a matter of my intuition, perhaps someone has studied the physics.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-08-11 14:04
I've never experienced a clarinet that was over-oiled, and I'm not sure how Pino knows when over-oiling exists, unless oil is actually sitting unabsorbed on the surface. Intuitively, I think it's very possible, almost certain, that there is significant interaction between the air column and the surface of the bore, which could easily explain a certain amount of turbulence, resistance, reverberation between the inside walls, etc... A gooey, oily surface could certainly be a part of that.
But since we're both going on basic intuition and not a deep knowledge of the acoustics involved (unless you're understating yours), this may be a little like two blind people discussing Van Gogh's use of color.
Karl
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-08-12 06:34
AFAIK, the people who do have an expert knowledge of the acoustics, agree that the material, other than its surface texture, is irrelevant, providing it reaches a certain minimum or rigidity, which it does, whether the clarinet is plastic, wood, or metal. (Making the clarinet from metal foil, or sealed felt, would be a different story!)
And double blind tests of woodwinds backs that up that science.
The sound is made by a vibrating air column. The tube provides shape for that air column. That shape is critical. Any actual vibration of the material has been measured and been deemed to be of such small amplitude as to be irrelevant in its contribution to the sound from the clarinet.
However there are few topics relating to woodwinds that have been discussed and argued as thoroughly as this.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-08-12 19:43
Thanks to all who corrected my misunderstanding of clarinet accustics. You know what they say about assumptions . I still have some further questions on topic: Since wet wood swells, could it be possible to get a clarinet so saturated with oil that it would swell a little inside? If the inside of the bore decreases, and especially if the irregular patterns in the grain cause it to swell in an uneven manner, could this affect the tone quality of the clarinet (by interfering with said air column?)?
Please note I am not suggesting that one oiling would over saturate a clarinet. I am thinking about heavily oiling a clarinet and repeated frequently over the course of several years.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-08-12 22:27)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-08-15 00:55
Just throwing ideas around...
1. Yes, moisture swells timber. But I'm not sure that oil does the same, or if so, not to the same extent.
2. For most materials, when the material of a tube swells, the inside diameter increases, not decreases. (This is because the circumference, even near the bore, increases, and that necessarily increases the diameter.... D = circumference/pi.)
It is possible that timber behaves differently.
3. AFAIK, it is the cross sectional area of the bore at any given location that is relevant for the sound made, rather than the cross-sectional shape. Slight ovalling would make negligible difference to the cross sectional area, so this may make less difference than some people imagine. However, ovalling can play havoc with the levelness of tone holes (hence sealing of pads) and alignment of posts, hence precision of pivots. And these can cause leaks, sometimes intermittent ones. (This is a much bigger consideration for wooden flutes, with their thin walls and huge tone holes, yet some manufacturers are peddling these again.)
4. But wet wood may raise the grain, which makes the surface more "hairy", which could indeed affect how the instrument plays.
5. When the surface of timber is oiled, it makes the microscopic "fluff" on the surface translucent (as does coconut oil on human skin), so it LOOKS smoother. And that may well have a psychological, auto-suggestive effect on how the player perceives the sound?
6. Saturating with oil makes timber quite a lot heavier. That too may have an effect on a player's perception. (Or make it unpleasantly heavy to hold.)
7. It is bad enough having dye seeping form timber into pads, making the membrane less flexible and more brittle, without having oil seeping from saturated timber onto the pads as well. Perhaps it is intuitive awareness of that, that stops most technicians from soaking clarinets in oil.
Post Edited (2013-08-15 00:57)
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