 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2013-07-15 05:49
Hello bboard, I've been thinking a lot about reeds ( oh you too ), so i have a question that i hope makes sense. Assuming the same brand and cut and that both reeds are balanced, would there be any "sound" difference between a #3 reed, and a #4 reed that had been worked on the play like a #3. I'm in a bit of an experamental period but don't have the means to buy multiple boxes, so was hoping those with the knowledge of such things could enlighten me.
Thank you very much for any help.
AAAClarinet
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-07-15 06:31
Basically, a #3 reed is the same as a #4 reed that had some material removed in an elaborate way.
However, not two #3 reeds operate in exactly the same way as there is - being natural material - some variation involved.
One can even make a dead #3 reed sound the same as a dead #4 reed. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-15 09:15
I have personally stopped putting much effort into modifying reeds, but my thought on your query would be ....... no.
The stronger reed starts out that way either because there is MORE material or because the existing material is DENSER. As you thin out a denser material to make it play softer, there is a more flaccid response to it simply because you then have less structure than the reed needs to stand up to its job. If the reed just needs material taken away (tip, heart, sides whatever) then you have a reed that will exhibit greater vibrations throughout than it did before. This reed would sound darker, tubbier etc. than a reed that started out as a softer reed.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-07-15 16:29
It's all about proportions. Unless you proportioned a #4 reed excastly the same way a #3 is it won't be the same. The only advantage to starting with a #4 and making it softer is to have a slightly thicker reed in places you don't want to take off wood. Example, leaving the bottom half of the vamp alone and only working down the tip and just below the tip to keep more wood at the bottom. Some people prefer having a thicker blank to start with but you would have to know what you're doing to be successful.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-15 18:33
Two characteristics of a reed contribute to strength or resistance - its thickness and its stiffness. People who know more about the physics of reeds than I do have said here on the BB that stiffness results from the density of the cane in a given reed. So reed strength seems to depend on the total mass of the reed, which results from the thickness (or volume) of cane and its density.
It seems to be conventional wisdom that the big commercial reed manufacturers cut all of their reeds of a specific brand and model to the same dimensions, so thickness (volume of cane) is the same for all strengths of, for instance V12 clarinet reeds.
Assuming that's true, the difference between a #3, a #4, a #4-1/2, etc. is in the stiffness of the cane as measured on gauges the manufacturers have designed for the purpose. When you start with a reed that Vandoren has measured to have a stiffness of 5 (on their spectrum of strengths) and scrape cane off generally over the whole surface of the reed to thin it, the actual mass of the reed probably begins to resemble the mass of a lighter reed with the original dimensions but is less stiff (dense). So, a reed approached this way should simply become less resistant. The main advantage to doing this would be that you could stop at a point between the strength of a #3-1/2 and the #4 you started with.
However, many players I know start with a reed that's more resistant than they like to play on, but they remove cane in specific places to make it more vibrant. The reed becomes less resistant overall, but the spine, which most people who use this approach avoid thinning at all, still has both the stiffness and original mass of the harder strength. If you selectively thin areas of the reed in this way, you change the shape of the profile. You've in effect redesigned the reed, producing different proportions (as Ed P. suggests) among its various vibrating areas. That can have a very audible effect on the sound quality and the response. Players who spend the time doing this to reeds that start off too stiff are really looking for a feel and sound they find it difficult to get from commercial reeds as they come from the box.
Karl
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2013-07-16 16:52
kdk above is exactly correct. I have visited Vandoren in France and seen the reed-manufacturing process up close.
All reeds of the same profile, say Traditional or V12, are cut the same way. At the end of the production line, the reeds are graded according to how they flex. There are special machines that does this.
Those reeds that flex easiest get the lowest strength grade, say 2 or 2.5. Those that flex with the most effort get the highest strength grade, typically 5.
Conclusion? Whether you judge a reed to be "hard" or "soft" or something in between, you are talking mostly about the properties of the cane itself, not about how the reed is made or cut.
I suppose it is generally true that making a "too hard" reed thinner will result in a reed that plays with less resistance. But unless you want to alter the reed's profile, you are best to thin the reed everywhere, not just in specific spots. Altering the profile can be done too, of course, but as Mr. Palanker points out, you need to know what you're doing.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-07-16 17:56
So to go with lowering a reed's resistance. How would one go about that? Would you thin the reed on the vamp with sand paper or reed knife? Would you also do the bottom side? I'm curious on your opinion! Thanks.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-07-16 18:10
Try some synthetic/plastic reeds. Their density is uniform.
richard smith
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Author: morbius
Date: 2013-07-19 02:13
OK... first of all, the assumption that a given brand of reed of the same strength are going to be identical is not true. The so called "strength" of a reed is only one variable. Different pieces of cane are as different as people. I'm sure you've gone through a box of reeds and marveled at how different they are one from another. (Which is why I've gone back to using the reed dual and making my own). Another variable is the accuracy of the dimensions of a reed, side to side, tip to butt. A reed must be balanced (because a reed vibrates side to side as well as tip to butt at the same time) and the "point of resistance must fit the mouthpiece.
John Dorch
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-07-20 15:58
The idea of removing cane from a #4 until it feels like a #3 is that the harder density of the #4 cane will be of benefit if you remove enough material for it to vibrate.
This is supposed to be more stable in feel and sound than a #3 right out of the box. I don't find this to be the case most of the time. However, a #3.5 that has been well balanced and softened up slightly will feel like a #3 that is on the harder side of the box.
As far as sound, a #3 can tend to be buzzy or unstable (depending on mouthpiece and player. A good #3 to me is fantastic, but many are too soft for me and my setup.
I'd rather control the explosion of vibration from a #3 than force a #4 to work (even if it's been worked down).
The exception to all of this (at least the only exception in my experience) is when a harder reed, one that is in the harder side of a box of 3.5's, when put on the reedual with a very well balanced reed to copy and properly calibrated machine can bridge this gap. A 3.5 that initially was stuffy and resistant can be balanced and softened until it plays like the harder side of 3 or a very vibrant 3.5.
Your mileage will vary, but the original question about sound difference in a hypothetical direct comparison would be YES there is a difference.
The saxophone professor at UT Austin has all of his students play on #5's. He has them work on them until they are playable, BUT never to touch the heart. They just scrape away at the sides of the tip and the very back of the reed until it plays. Naturally, this completely changes the design of the reed, but I imagine they play them for a long time (I probably would too if I put that much work into each reed!)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-07-20 17:34
I've posted this before, and I'm happy to do it again (courtesy of Blake McGee):
http://reedhelp.wordpress.com/research/strength/
As others have pointed out, Vandoren and Rico cut all their reeds the same way, and they're graded for strength after production. From McGee's research, Gonzalez "creates hard reeds with a slightly thicker blank, straighter cut, and thicker tip than a soft reed . . . "
After much trial and error, I find that I like to start with a slightly softer reed, and clip if slightly (if necessary) to make it right for me. This works very well with Rico Reserves, and if I have to make adjustments, reed rush works well.
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Author: William
Date: 2013-07-22 15:27
Reeds are like books that have the same dimensions, cover and binding. They may look alike, but the quality of their "substance" varies with their stories. In other words, reeds that have the same dimensions--cut, thickness, and strength, etc--will not play the same due to the density and xylum array of the cane itself. However, two reeds of varying qualities may sound the same because your sound it more "you" than the reed. For example, even tho I play a Larry Combs mouthpiece, I still will sound like *me* no matter how hard I try.
In a clinic given by Charles Neidich some years ago, he became concerned with how his clarinet was responding. His solution was to switch to a different mouthpiece, right there in front of all of us. He said, "there, that's better" and continued. I noticed no change in his sound whatsoever, but he seemed more content with the change. It is also sometimes told that he will walk onto a stage to play a featured work, crack open a new box of reeds and play the concert with the first one out. Scary for most of us. Professor of Clarinet at Michigan, William Stubbins, used to scream at his students, "Play the reed, do not let the reed play you".
Another example, during a very recent clinic given by Karl Leister, picked up his clarinet after it had been laying on a table for over one-half an hour to demonstrate to a student clarinetist how a motif from a Brahms Sonata should be played. Even with an "idle" reed, he played with a marvelous sound and fluid musicality--we were all in awe. He played the reed, not the other way around. His opening comment that morning was, "Lets talk about the music and not about the equipment." Obviously, his priorities put musical performance first and equipment...last. A subtle lesson for all of us from one of this worlds finest clarinetists. OK, I'm done--hope this rant helps a bit.
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