 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pageerror404
Date: 2013-07-04 23:27
I found this clarinet at goodwill and I thought it was beautiful so I bought it. The weird thing is that I am not musician and I don't know anything about clarinets. I need some expert help so I can find out more about it.
I could be way off, but from my research it looks like an early model R-13. Could somebody verify that for me? I have no idea if it has silver plated or nickel plated keys.
Also I'm not sure if everything is there. I'm concerned by the empty socket in the case... what was supposed to go there?
How is the condition? It looks pretty nice to me, the wood is in fantastic shape... but I don't know the standard that musicians hold for their instrument conditions.
Here are some photos I took.
http://i.imgur.com/78WNVM2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q0201TE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SxDz2lr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zMxEn5F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7fBunZl.jpg
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-07-05 02:00
The rectangular section in the case between the where the joints go, if that's what your talking about, used to hold a cheap plastic box for accessories. I don't even remember what was in it when I got my R13 in '63. Maybe a swab.
B.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-05 02:02
pe404 -
You have an early R13. The serial number 59065 dates it to 1958 http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html. The R13 was introduced at the very end of 1954 or the very beginning of 1955, around serial number 48800.
The case is correct for 1958. The throat A key may have a flat spring, though the right hand low F#/C# key probably does not.
In 1958, Buffet did not plate their keys, but made them of solid, German silver, an alloy of copper, nickel and zinc (but no silver). In my opinion this is the best metal for keys. Silver plate wears through, and chrome is too slippery for me.
R13s from 1958 have the original design. For me, they really are "the sweetest clarinet ever made," with a unique tone color and response. A few years later, Buffet modified the design, mainly by moving the register vent higher and making it smaller. This significantly improved the intonation, at the cost (at least for me) of making the tone brighter and removing the sweetness.
Look down the upper joint from the top. You want the area above the register vent to be shiny, as it is below the vent. If it's dull, the bore has been reamed, probably in an attempt to fix intonation problems. 99% of the time this is bad news. Almost all barrels from that period have been reamed and ruined. Buffet barrels from 1958 were cylindrical. You'll want a new barrel with a reverse taper to improve intonation and response.
If there are no cracks in the wood and the rims are clean, the clarinet is worth at least $1,000, and maybe close to twice that, but everything depends on how it plays (intonation in particular).
Ken Shaw
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Author: pageerror404
Date: 2013-07-05 02:38
Can you clarify what you mean by the area above the register vent? Are you talking about the inside of the barrel or on the outside?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-07-05 03:52
"The rectangular section in the case between where the joints go ... used to hold a cheap plastic box for accessories. "
Actually, it was a plastic case for 4 reeds. I still have the two that came with my 1960s R13s.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-07-05 14:05
Author: pageerror404 (---.ph.ph.cox.net - (Cox Communications) Tempe, AZ United States)
Date: 2013-07-05 02:38
"Can you clarify what you mean by the area above the register vent? Are you talking about the inside of the barrel or on the outside?"
This refers to the part of the internal bore above the register vent. The surface texture of the bore should be uniform. If there is a distinct difference in texture it is likely that the bore has been enlarged or altered by reaming. Generally, this is not a good thing to find.
Tony F.
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Author: pageerror404
Date: 2013-07-05 15:48
Well that's great news because I inspected the bore and I cannot identify any texture difference at all. I don't think it has been altered in any way.
Thanks for all the help everyone. I primarily collect antique tools, so a clarinet was a complete shot in the dark... not a bad purchase for $150 :P
I'm gonna take it to a band instrument store today and see if it needs any servicing to be playable again.
Now if I felt tempted to do so, can someone learn to play clarinet on an R13. Does the quality and expense increase with "professional" clarinets also come with an increase in difficulty?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-07-05 16:49
You will have no problems whatsoever learning on an R13, and you are most fortunate to have the opportunity. Improvement in quality does not reflect in increased difficulty in playing, indeed if it is well set up the opposite is likely.
Tony F.
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Author: pageerror404
Date: 2013-07-05 18:10
Thanks for the info. The man at the music shop agreed. He said I would be fine learning on it, he just would not recommend it for a child since they don't usually care for their instruments as well as adults.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-06 01:47
A pristine early R13 for $150! Marry me and give me the inside line on your amazing luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Rezzie
Date: 2013-07-13 17:14
Excellent find.
Get this in the hands of a good technician, and then in the hands of a promising young player who can't come up with the dosh for a new Buffet or the like. Money will change hands along the way, but in the end music and humanity in general will be well served. I have had an R13 of the same vintage (58XXX) for some 40+ years, and it is a wonderful instrument, even if it has a couple of notes that make you work and listen very critically to play them in tune. That said, that's the case for all instruments, always has been, and always will be. The case also looks to be in very good condition for its age.
It's like finding a lost '56 T-bird or '63 split-window Vette for sale in somebody's garage. You must have some excellent karma going for you.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-14 14:28
Ken, you wrote, "...Almost all barrels from that period have been reamed and ruined."
I doubt that any barrels from that era have been reamed in my country. Was destructive barrel reaming a fashion in some parts at sometime?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-07-14 16:05
Likewise, in Australia I have never seen a reamed R13 barrel or bore. I've eased tight tenons in a few, but only the tenons and by an almost microscopic amount. Strangely, only the barrel to upper joint tenon, the others seem to be OK. Anybody else noticed this?
Tony F.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-07-14 20:17
Congratulations on an excellent bargain!
Unfortunately, I've seen enough reamed barrels on early R13s (and also on pre-R13s) in the Pennsylvania-Maryland-DC-Virginia corridor of the USA to think it's true that this operation must have been common around here. Most of the reamed barrels I've seen are also cracked. Definitely something to watch out for when deciding whether or not to buy a Buffet of this vintage.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2013-07-14 20:47)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-15 19:13
Gordon and Tony -
I've bought half a dozen Buffets on eBay, and not one of them had a usable barrel. All the barrels had been reamed out untapered and oversized.
The reaming was obvious, because it made the bore surface dull.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-07-15 23:13
"Gordon and Tony -
I've bought half a dozen Buffets on eBay, and not one of them had a usable barrel. All the barrels had been reamed out untapered and oversized.
The reaming was obvious, because it made the bore surface dull."
Must be an American thing, I've just never seen it here. I've bought Buffets of several persuasions from US sellers and they were all OK. Perhaps I've been lucky.
Tony F.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-17 05:26
Ken wrote "The reaming was obvious, because it made the bore surface dull."
I am reasonably in touch with the gear offered to technicians. I know one supplier lists a reamer but this is not an item high on the promotion list. (When I saw it I thought it was ridiculous because it assumed that the barrel should be always the same diameter as the top of the upper joint. So no buy.)
I am well in touch the chatter of technician's, especially American ones. On every topic imaginable. But I don't recall discussion of barrel reaming.
I have no evidence at all that this has ever been a universal practice anywhere.
Timber surfaces get dull on repeated exposure to moisture, like shoe leather does.
So I would never regard a dull wood surface as conclusive evidence of reaming!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-07-17 12:37
>So I would never regard a dull wood surface as conclusive evidence of reaming!>
I probably should repeat my usual caveat here: I'm an amateur. Still, I've seen what Ken's talking about: I'd call the look of that wood more than just dull. It's coarse-textured. The woodworking looks crude, compared to the inside of the rest of the clarinet. In fact it's the telltale appearance of that wood that alerts me to take a hard look at the shape and the diameter.
>>I am well in touch the chatter of technician's, especially American ones. On every topic imaginable. But I don't recall discussion of barrel reaming. >>
I wouldn't expect a recent discussion, based on what I've seen at the flea markets. A lot of fairly recent student-grade clarinets turn up in those markets, but they don't have reamed barrels. The vintage, pro-quality clarinets for sale outdoors are rarely in playable condition. Most of them appear to have sat around in storage for a long time: tenon corks cracked and detached, pads falling out, bumper corks falling off, cases dirty and deteriorated inside, etc.. So nobody's been reaming those barrels or doing anything else to them recently.
From that evidence, I think reaming the barrels must have been popular about half a century ago, at least in the mid-Atlantic area of the USA. I think it was being done on clarinets that were fairly new at the time. I don't have a scientific, statistical survey of what I've found, but that's my general impression. The ones I've seen with reamed barrels have been mostly mid-century clarinets, sometimes older ones, but not recent ones.
By the way, the barrels aren't the only things to watch out for on those mid-century clarinets. Take a look down the bore of the upper stack, from the top. The big telltales: the register key tube may stick out abnormally far into the bore, while the upper tenon will be thinner than the tenon at the center joint. Someone's been reaming around up there -- and quite often in those cases, there'll be a crack from the register key hole up through the top tenon.
Usually I warn about "marriages" -- clarinets put together from pieces of more than one instrument. But maybe this is the place to spell out that a replaced barrel can be a good thing, if it's a suitable barrel replacing an original that got spoiled.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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