 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: KDY
Date: 2011-06-02 16:24
I'm planning on getting a new R13 and I read something about snapping tenons(just knocking them over on a stand would break them)
But then, I read something else - I heard buffet oboes' had this problem fixed.
I'm quite confused now. I wonder when did this problem got fixed(or not). So when I order one, i'll be able to check it's serial number and decide whether to get it refunded or not.
Post Edited (2011-06-02 16:26)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-02 17:23
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Getting knocked over on a hard surface is going to put a hurting on any clarinet. I certainly wouldn't disqualify an instrument just because it might get damaged if I ever dropped it or knocked it over. Even if you did break a tenon it's possible to have them replaced.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-06-02 18:46
Well.............
I agree with SteveG CT in that you can't go around assuming the worst will happen. As for the tenon reinforcement, I saw a reference to this on the BOARD some time ago but don't know what if any improvements have been done of late..........maybe Buffet could chime in here with a comment or two.
As for the snapping tenons. I had placed my horn on its bell (no stand) upon a concrete floor with only a thin rubber coating. As it always happens in these situations, I knocked it over. In situations like this in the past (I am a slow learner) I might have to unbend some keys (side keys usually) to fix the damage, but that's about it. The Greenline however is brittle and the lower tenon of the upper joint snapped off clean right at its base.
The GREAT news about the Greenlines is that BECAUSE of the material, intonation is more stable from one horn to the other. The wood ones "settle" after manufacture and the internal pitch is less consistent as a result.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-02 20:12
Get a blayman stand. If you knock it over on THAT stand, you've done something HORRIBLY wrong.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-02 21:33
Simple fix, don't know the horn over. I've never had a tenon break though I must admit in the almost 60 years I've been playing my clarinet has not been knocked over many times. I've never heard of a tenon breaking off from being knocked over anyway. A few bent keys maybe. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: KDY
Date: 2011-06-02 23:58
Thank you all for your interest. I'll have to think about it. I know I shouldn't be thinking of the worst at all times, but accidents happen. Having knocked over E11 personally - and it kinda survived without any damage - I'll have to give it a second thought...
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-03 00:58
I'll second Alexi's advice and recommend you invest in a really good stand. My clarinet usually resides on a peg attached to my bass clarinet stand and you would have to be trying pretty hard to knock it over. If I just had soprano clarinets to deal with then a Blayman base and pegs would be my choice. They are much more stable than most other clarinet stands.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-03 01:11
The middle tenon is the weakest part of any composite clarinet or oboe as composites don't have the same degree of tensile strength as wood, added to the fact the middle tenon is generally very thin compared to the thickness of the rest of the joints.
Wooden instruments will withstand a knock or fall better than most composites but that doesn't mean they won't break - they'll just be able to withstand the impact better than composites due to the structure. Metal instruments will bend or kink at a weak point (usually in the areas where opposing toneholes are located) if they land heavily plus they'll get dented.
While Greenline is made from pulverised grenadilla, it's still a composite as it doesn't have any regular grain pattern like natural timber which is what gives wood its strength.
What would be a good idea on all Greenline instruments is a metal sleeved middle tenon that goes about 1/4 the length of the top joint to strengthen the middle tenon.
I've also seen Greenline bells and barrels broken across where there's a weakness in the material - the different layers could be seen like the layers of different coloured sand in souvenirs sold at Alum Bay on the Isle of Wight.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-06-04 13:20
There was one huge, long thread here on the Board on this topic back in January of 2010 (with helpful comments from Chris P, who's a rockstar when it comes to clarinet issues having to do with design & function, THANKS Chris!), and I seem to remember another thread (no time to search) having to do with the issue Chris identifies here, where the tenon seems to split horizontally at a point of either maximum stress or maximum focus of expansion/contraction--in other words, a stress fracture develops over time, and the invocation of multicolored layers of sand in a souvenir bottle is apt to describe this.
I have no sense whether the Greenline is more or less likely to be damaged in a fall than a solid wood clarinet, or whether ANY clarinet wouldn't be just as likely to be damaged in some way from a major collision with mother earth. The Jan '10 thread does point out that joint replacement on a Greenline is easier and less intrusive in terms of altered playing characteristics, because the stuff is more stable and more easily machined to a true tolerance.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-06-04 15:39
and.................
Buffet will replace under warranty within five years of purchase.
...........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Joseph Tomasso
Date: 2013-06-15 08:21
Attachment: photo(1).JPG (1680k)
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Not to resurrect an old thread... but this happened to me today.
My buffet Orfeo oboe is only 7 months old (still smells new!) but the tenon snapped tonight while swabbing.
I've never dropped the horn. No major traumas at all.
Starting the long process of phonecalls/emails/crying to get the top joint replaced... which is going to be a rough situation since it is essentially an entirely different instrument at that point.
My degree recital is in 4 weeks.... this is fun!
Bachelor of Music, Sax/Clarinet Performance (2005, 06)
Master of Music, Multiple Woodwind Performance (2008)
Master of Music, Oboe Performance (2013)
Gainesville Chamber Orchestra (Clarinet)
University of Florida 2010-2011(Visiting Lecturer in Woodwi
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-06-15 12:35
I keep wondering what the incentive is to purchase a Greenline instrument.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-15 12:56
The 'good news' in all of this is that Buffet WILL honor their warranty AND (at least I find this to be the case) because the Greenline material is much more stable (except for snapping of course) than wood, the new joint should be an excellent match for your lower one.
The immediate problem is getting an oboe to use for your event. I'd work on that FIRST so you don't have a lot of down time.
As far as getting the repair done, you need to go back to the establishment were you bought the horn, or find a 'brick and mortar' store (preferably one with a good reputation for oboe repair) that sells and services Buffet. They will transfer the keys (and re-pad) under the terms with Buffet (that means all expenses will be covered).
Good Luck !!!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-15 13:02
Hey Bob,
Just saw your post.
I truly think there is a LOT of potential with the medium to make mass produced instruments be consistent in pitch and not have that pitch move after manufacture (which seems to be the biggest issue with wood R13s). Of course there are OTHER manufacturers out there that don't seem to have as much trouble with this !!!!
But since the tone holes are NOT prone to going out of round at all, I'd be MORE likely to invest in a utility horn (Eb or Bass) in Greenline than out of wood these days.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-06-15 17:20
I actually opened athread with similar topic before. Search Greenline Sound Difference and you might find a bit more information.
Lohff and Pfeiffer makes metal tenons(sleeves, as they call it) as well as sockets. Maybe the metal ones have a lower chance of snapping off?
Josh
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2013-06-15 18:57
They will break. I've had two come in with snapped off tenons. Buffet sent new joints for each clarinet at no charge. I wouldn't worry if you are buying a new clarinet.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-06-15 21:15
Certainly with science being what it is, we must be able to come up with a better composite than Greenline. I'd hope for something better than ABS, better than Ebonite. Maybe some kind of nylon or even the material that high end cookware puts on their pot handles - Bakelite, I think it's called. Bakelite is durable, heat resistant, attractive and doesn't change it's color or appearance over the years. Greenline seems fragile and Ebonite changes color. What about the material that cars use on their intake manifold?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-15 22:00
Bakelite was used on older Bundys, Vitos, Yamahas and B&H Regents and is a much heavier material than wood - older Bundy bassoons were made from it and they weighed an absolute ton in comparison to the later ABS ones which also weigh considerably more than maple ones (check the tenor joint to see where they've made weight-saving cut-outs).
It's also just as brittle as Greenline and I've seen plenty of older Regents, Bundys, Vitos, Yamaha YCL-24 clarinets and YPC-31 piccolos, etc. which have been snapped in half.
Components made from bakelite do weaken or break over time when subject to stress - think of wall sockets, distributor caps and other things that have to withstand stresses as they do eventually fail.
What would be better is an aluminium or titanium tenon which is inset a fair way into the top joint,or even a wooden tenon which at least has tensile strength that composites don't have due to their crystaline structure.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-06-16 02:36
Funny. That looks remarkably like what happened to Joseph Tomasso's oboe -- rotated 90˚ clockwise.
jnk
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-06-16 07:39
wouldn't it be better to make both joints with a female end and use a short male/male tenon stub to connect both joints? One can then choose whatever material is best, and have a "victim" part that's easier and cheaper to replace than a whole joint.
And think of the aftermarket possibilities - tenon stubs in Kevlar, Cocobolo, Granite etc to enhance the sound... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-16 14:14
Although it's a good idea, the problem with making a double tenon is the top joint toneholes (especially the C#/G#) which will mean the potential of alignment problems. While the tenon could be fitted perfectly in place in the top joint socket, it could turn slightly when fitting the lower joint so that will cause problems with the G# tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-06-16 15:06
Tenon problems were solved a long time ago as tenon-less metal clarinets. And then there's the possibility of simply "glueing" both sections of non-metal clarinets together.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-06-16 15:31
"Although it's a good idea, the problem with making a double tenon is the top joint toneholes (especially the C#/G#) which will mean the potential of alignment problems. While the tenon could be fitted perfectly in place in the top joint socket, it could turn slightly when fitting the lower joint so that will cause problems with the G# tonehole."
A locating notch and corresponding bump, as has been used by many other makers, would address this issue.
Tony F.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-06-16 15:32
> Although it's a good idea, the problem with making a double tenon is the
> top joint toneholes (especially the C#/G#) which will mean the potential of
> alignment problems. While the tenon could be fitted perfectly in place in the
> top joint socket, it could turn slightly when fitting the lower joint so that will
> cause problems with the G# tonehole.
I was thinking of a semipermanent fit in the upper joint, using an alignment hole drilled between socket and tenon (parallel to the bore), secured against twisting with a (slightly protruding) pin which then also could serve as an alignment aid for the lower joint.
(before someone patents this, I herewith claim prior art )
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-16 17:02
I would think the tenon stub would make the whole system even more "wobbly" together.
This might just be an argument for a uni body Greenline horn ala Rossi.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-16 17:38
Buffet used to make single piece full Boehms, so no reason why they can't make single piece Greenline clarinets. That's one way to avoid a broken middle tenon as there's no middle tenon to break. But you will have grumblings from players who like to pull the middle tenon out.
Has anyone seen or heard of a Greenline bass with a broken middle tenon?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-17 21:40
Although delrin was mentioned earlier, it too isn't the best material as like all other plastics and composites, it doesn't have the same tensile strength as natural wood. I've seen several delrin bodied oboes with broken middle tenons, so it's just as likely to break at the weakest point like any other plastic/composite instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-06-18 11:13
I've never seen a Delrin instrument. Are you sure they weren't ABS?
Steve Ocone
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-06-18 12:41
Tensile strength isn't necessarily the main factor for assessing a material's suitability for tenons. With "plastic" instruments molding parameters and sharpness of the transition between the tenon and body are likely more important.
With respect to the latter the blueprint spec. for the radius at that location would be the first thing I would look at. Sometimes designers will call for a "max" radius dimension rather than a "min".
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-18 13:26
They were delrin bodied oboes as I worked at the factory where they were built - delrin was only used on pro level oboes, either the top joint only or the entire instrument. The only other plastic used was PVC which was for all plastic or plastic top joint student model oboes/cors. The ones with broken tenons were the pro models.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-06-18 16:56
The molding of all thermoplastic plastics can involve the use of "regrind" where already used scrap is ground up and mixed with virgin plastic......or used without any virgin material. The amount of regrind used and it's history has a lot to do with the mechanical properties of the newly molded parts. Even when "No Regrind" is specified one cannot be sure the requirement was honored unless tests and controls are used.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Joseph Tomasso
Date: 2013-07-02 04:43
Thanks for the kind words. I didn't reply sooner as I was waiting to hear back from buffet. The short version is "its your problem, it will take 4-6 months for a replacement." Technically this is upholding their end of the waranty, but it is a very poor excuse for customer service in my mind. I had to kick and scream to get a 30 day loaner. When the 30 days are up I have no idea what I'm going to do. daily phone calls to buffet to ask about the status of my new top joint are just about the only thing I can think to do to put some pressure on them. They have spare orfeos... since it is only an instrument 7 months out in the "real world" I am quite shocked they think waiting 4-6 months is an acceptable solution. I'd much rather have an instrument swapped so I can sell this and buy an oboe from another company.
I can not, and will not, ever support another buffet greenline instrument. They play beautifully but at what great risk to be without an instrument!
Bachelor of Music, Sax/Clarinet Performance (2005, 06)
Master of Music, Multiple Woodwind Performance (2008)
Master of Music, Oboe Performance (2013)
Gainesville Chamber Orchestra (Clarinet)
University of Florida 2010-2011(Visiting Lecturer in Woodwi
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-02 10:28
Joseph, is there no way they can cover the cost of a tenon repair instead of waiting for a replacement top joint which may suffer the same fate? If I were you I'd have a wooden tenon fitted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-05 14:55
Even a grafted-on ABS or Delrin, or Hard rubber tenon should be stronger than the original, because there would no longer be "notch sensitivity" at the "sharpness of the transition between the tenon and body" (that BobD mentioned), where the tenon meets the shoulder.
Perhaps Buffet should supply replacement, graftable, Greenline tenons. Or incorporate them at manufacture!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-05 15:29
I spoke to a trainee at the Royal Marines School of Music yesterday who's had three Greenline R13s in the relatively short time he's been there as they've all shed their middle tenons. The simple action of bringing their clarinets down to their side while on parade is enough to break the middle tenon, plus the added weight of a bell lyre and march cards. While there are wooden R13s from the mid '80s that are still doing good service since being downgraded for volunteer band use (albeit looking very worn out) speaks volumes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-07-05 18:48)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-05 17:17
And now I think we've moved to HOW one uses an instrument is more relevant to the question "To Greenline or not to Greenline."
There are some colleagues of mine who stress over taking a top-of-the-line wooden instrument "outside" simply because it is "outside." My contention is that any outdoor venue with anything close to a reasonable temperature (60 degrees fahrenheit or better) and mostly dry conditions (not raining profusely) would call for a wooden instrument just based on its ability to survive the vagaries of such gigs: setting up, tearing down, uneven stepping surface (or sitting surface, or placing instrument on stand surface).
If an instrument gets knocked over and a key or two get bent up, this is a much easier fix than having your instrument rent in half.
This also goes for those putting lateral stressors on instruments such as our friends in the British military.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: andy63
Date: 2013-07-05 19:09
Hi all
I have been using a greenline RC Bb for about three years now ,for concert work and marching band.
It has even fallen of its stand a couple of times withought breaking into peices.And my tenons are still ok .
Regards Andy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-06 11:50
As I recall, Buffet had tenon breakage problems on early Greenlines, and did something about that. So some may be worse than others.
Chris, these must have been fine after tenon grafts.
Post Edited (2013-07-06 11:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-06 18:28
I think they were most likely entire top joint transplants rather than tenon grafts.
I did a few top joint transplants for them in around 2008-09, but didn't expect the tenons on the new top joints to last.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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