 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-07-03 17:08
The neck on my plastic Yamaha bass has a shallow angle for the mouthpiece. This has hindered the overall performance of the instrument, especially at the high register above high A. So now I am think of finding someone to bend the mouthpiece angle to a steeper degree. Can repair technicians do the job? If not, who should I find for doing such a job?
Josh
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-07-03 17:47
Sometimes I can bend them if the metal is thin (as on the Kohlert-Winnenden basses of the 1950s-60s and my Uebel Oehler-system bass from the same general era), but usually I have to de-solder and re-solder the mouthpiece socket (at the new angle) or cut the tubing and solder it back together at the new angle.
I know that Walter Grabner does such work, and there are probably a few others.
You can also purchase necks with a sharper angle, for example one from a newer Yamaha or a Vito, and there are some coming out of China (which I would think would be readily available where you are) that should fit.
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2013-07-03 19:04
When the tubing is bent it becomes oval in shape. Narrow one way and wide the other. That may or may not have an adverse effect on response and intonation. There are techs what will remove the mouthpiece receiver and cut and re-braze the neck changing the angle of the mouthpiece. I suspect that since it is Yamaha the socket is silver-soldered to the neck, and it will take a lot of heat to remove it. I also estimate the cost to be in the neighborhood of $125 to do this kind of work with no guarantee that you will be happy with the way it plays afterwards.
Chances are that this bass clarinet is actually a Vito that has the Yamaha name on it, and if so, you could probably buy a new neck with a neck angle you'd like better at about the same price....or less if you can find a used one. Keep in mind that a new neck will most likely need to be fit to your neck receiver on the instrument with a cost of around $25 give or take.
Here's a link to a new neck for $90 plus shipping.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/vito-bass-clarinet-neck?src=3WWRWXGP&gclid=CPq52rSClLgCFedZ7AodqD4AqA&kwid=productads-plaid^20601823922-sku^468225@ADL4mf-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^14207181242&tandt_rdir=1&aR=true
Post Edited (2013-07-03 19:10)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-07-03 20:09
Correct that when bent, the originally round cross-sectional shape of the tubing changes from round to slightly oval. With the limited amount of bending I've done (limited to avoid buckling or cracking of the tube), just enough to get the mouthpiece angle to around 30-35 degrees from horizontal, I have not noticed any effects on sound or response from the ovality (nor would I expect to --- as someone else pointed out in another thread, I believe it was Ken Shaw regarding some square-chambered barrels once made by Phil Rovner --- it is the internal volume of the clarinet tube that affects things, not the shape of that volume).
Some necks (notably Leblanc products, which includes Vito, Vito-clones such as the earlier Yamaha student basses, Normandy, Noblet and Leblanc-Paris) have mouthpiece receivers soldered onto the necks using such a high-temperature solder that if you attempt to de-solder them you're likely to burn a hole in the tubing before the part comes off (if it comes off at all). With these you have no choice but to cut the tubing at an angle (half of the desired total angle of change), flip the socket end upside down and re-solder. I believe Dr. Charles Bay pioneered the technique back in the 1970s. I was playing a Noblet bass in college back then and sent him my neck to be re-angled --- that was the technique he used before he started making custom high-angle necks from scratch. The end result looks a bit odd but works fine.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-03 20:31
Just from my experience, I have used a top-of-the-line Buffet that had a traumatic hit causing the neck to be bent into a significant oval. At least one repair tech tried to round it out to no avail, and YES it DOES affect the intonation to a most egregious degree (with all due respect to adherents of volume).
DO NOT BEND THE NECK !!!!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-07-03 21:00
A significant bend caused by unintentional damage is not the same as a mild INTENTIONAL bend, Paul. You have reported one data point, I have successfully "bent" at least a dozen necks.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-07-04 00:58
In general if you want to actually bend the neck there are really only two options. You can have a neck pieced together using multiple pieces of pre-bent tubing of the correct size such that you will end up with a neck that is the same length as the original but has a different mouthpiece angle. I used to make custom exhaust headers for racecars using this method. It works well and requires no specialized equipment but it is labor intensive.
The second method is to have a new neck made by someone who is in possession of a mandrel bender capable of making tight radius bends. A mandrel bender will be able to bend round tubing to any angle and maintain the circular cross section. If you can find a person with the appropriate machine they should be able to make the neck tube for you quickly and economically if you provide them with sketch showing the bend angles, radii, and tubing lengths.
Probably the easiest solution would be to just reposition the mouthpiece socket as Dave Spiegelthal suggested. He did this to my bass neck a while back and I have been happy with the results.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-04 03:12
Charles Bay makes bass necks with a steep curve. Ain't cheap.
The great bass soloist Josef Horak showed me his no-cost method. He sat far forward in the chair and tucked his right heel next to the right front chair leg. He then set the floor peg of his Selmer low-C bass in the angle between the chair leg and his heel, leaning the instrument slightly forward and to the left. This tilted the mouthpiece up to give him the playing angle he preferred.
The nice thing about doing it this way is that you don't have to get a new neck. It took me a while to get used to it, though. I was initially too enthusiastic and my left arm hurt from supporting the instrument. After a while, I learned to tilt more to the side and less forward.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-07-04 03:31
May I suggest that the problem with playing that register is not the angle of the neck but the plastic student model instrument. I assume it's a single octave instrument. I play an older low C Selmer bass, probably the first low C model they mass produced. The neck does have a little angle to it but nothing like the newer ones. I never liked the Bay neck because it was much too acute. I've always felt the MP should enter the mouth inbetween what would be a clarinet and a sax angle. So what I've done all my playing life is bend my head back when I play top get under the mouthpiece a little, been doing that for 50 years. I didn't do it on purpose, I just experimented with different angles when I began playing the bass and found that gave me the best result. I do, and teach, placing the peg slightly back under the chair so the instrument is at a slight angle instead of straight up and down. That helps give me my comfortable angle. Experiment with angling the bass and bending your head back a bit so you can get your mouth on the mouthpiece in a comfortable position. But I still think a lot of the problem lies with the plastic bass you're using. A person once asked me why I play with my head bent back. I replied, that what give me my great tone and control.
PS, I now have very strong neck muscles. :-)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2013-07-04 04:09
Ed, I thought you might say that tilting your head back gives you the perfect opportunity to look down your nose at the conductor.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-04 11:53
Perhaps as "subtle bend" only affects the pitch in a "subtle manner." I would still say it's not worth the experiment when you have actual necks available on the market.
But are we missing a point here. The bass is an entirely different animal. I for one wouldn't want to play a bass the way I play soprano.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-05 14:32
The following, presented by David Spiegelthal, calls for clarification:
"I have not noticed any effects on sound or response from the ovality (nor would I expect to --- as someone else pointed out in another thread, I believe it was Ken Shaw regarding some square-chambered barrels once made by Phil Rovner --- it is the internal volume of the clarinet tube that affects things, not the shape of that volume)"
1. If a circular cross-section tube is ovalled during a bending process, the cross section of that oval is less than it was as a circle.
2. It is true that the cross-section shape of the tube of a woodwind instrument is not important, But as far as our orchestral woodwinds go, length should not be confused with volume. A vibrating air column, where length is highly relevant, is not the same as a Helmholtz resonator, which may have the same volume of air in it, but its shape, typically more spherical (e.g. an ocarina), is totally irrelevant.
But yes, nuances of bore cross-section area do affect our orchestral woodwinds.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-05 16:17
Some bent tubing is done by filling with something to support the tube while being bent (pitch, frozen soap solution, Cerrobend or even lead) which may work, but in order to bend tubing with a large cylindrical bore like a bass clarinet crook you'll be better to start with a much longer length of tubing to get some leverage, then cut it to the required length once the filler/supporting material has been removed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-07-05 16:34
To increase the mouthpiece angle of a thin-wall bass clarinet neck (such as on the Kohlert-Winnenden Boehm-system basses and my F.A. Uebel Oehler-system bass) from nearly horizontal to about 30 degrees up, the amount the neck (at the mouthpiece socket) has to be pulled outward and up is remarkably little --- so the resulting ovality is small. I have never noticed any intonation or response degradations from such small amounts of ovality. One can also re-angle tenor or C-melody sax necks by this same method, and with those as well I haven't been able to detect any changes in playing qualities.
To reiterate, I'm talking about small changes in the cross-sectional shapes.
For the majority of necks, it's either better (or necessary) to desolder and remount the mouthpiece socket (if it can be removed), or if not removable, to cut the tubing at a slight angle, rotate the socket 180 degrees and re-solder.
Similar to what Chris P has reported, I read somewhere that one method of bending tubing without buckling it is to pack it full of sand, seal off both ends, then heat the tubing to near red-hot and bend it. The incompressible sand inside the tube prevents the wall from buckling. I don't have the means to try this so this is second-hand information at best.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-06 02:04
David -
I've also read about the sand-packing method, though I don't remember where.
Charles Bay is really hard to get in touch with by mail, email or phone. You may have to go to, say, the ClarinetFest, buy him dinner and much wine and pump the secret out of him. I wonder how he does it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Rezzie
Date: 2013-07-06 02:47
I am on the same wavelength as Ken Shaw and the one and only Eddie P. on this. (OT - love your reed adjustment layout diagram, Ed - what a time saver) I have just been working (minutes ago, the cats will attest to it) on the top octave C to C stuff on my good old Selmer model 33, with the original unaltered neck, no change in neck angle. The idea is to get out on the edge of your chair and put the bell back up under yourself, which adjusts the angle right where it works well, and makes the instrument easier to get around on, or at least it does for me... I am always mindful of the chair I'm going to be sitting in - if it doesn't get up off the floor far enough, I always keep something around to add to the seat as a boost.
I have the low-C clarinet, and I am using a peg with a strap attached on the lower hook - I can't imagine how you could control the horn without both of them.
As for how they actually do the bends in the neck, I suspect it would be some kind of use of pitch or frozen material within the area to be bent, like they do with brasses to get the bends in without compromising the integrity of the size and shape in the aperture within the tube.
This is my first post ever in the forum, so take this with the grain of salt it deserves.
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-07-06 05:05
My friend Maurice Reviol (who apprenticed in Germany making Bassoons and Bass clarinets) was just telling me a few weeks back about bending tubes- he saves up a number of little jobs (various repairs, he also makes various instruments- flutes/Irish pipes etc) so that he does it on the same day. I seem to recall he fills the tube with... mercury? lead? something poisonous... (which you of course remove and clean after bending) I'll ask him about it and post back- but i'm fairly sure there are ways to greatly limit the effect of the pipe going oval....
dn
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-07-06 11:40
At least with brass instruments, the tube is filled with lead (or tin?), then the tube is bent.
http://www.klassodern.ch/video/trompetenbau.wmv, bending is done from 2:30ish on.
I don't claim to be an expert on bass clarinet necks, but as long as it's an unadjustable and register-key-less neck, it shouldn't be too complicated to have one made from scratch to specifications, no?
Sure, in the case of the old Yamaha/Vito bass, it'd be easier to just buy a replacement neck from a current product. Jupiter might be worth checking as well, I guess their current bass is also a Vito/Yamaha design (descendant).
--
Ben
Post Edited (2013-07-06 11:51)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-06 11:46
Yes, there are ways as Chris pointed out. (I don't think mercury is used!)
There are also diameter limits, when severe stretching cannot be avoided, even by these methods.
Are all sax bows made in two pressed halves, brazed together?
I had assumed that bassoon bends were made similarly, but may be wrong.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-07-06 18:46
There are specialist alloys available for repairers to use to fill tubing before bending that melt at very low temperatures (approx 100 C ) and are therefore very much easier to use and to remove after bending.
There are even plastic versions that work at similar temperatures although I have not used these on tubing myself.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-07-06 20:46
Norman Smale wrote,
>>There are specialist alloys available for repairers to use to fill tubing before bending that melt at very low temperatures (approx 100 C ) and are therefore very much easier to use and to remove after bending.
>>
There are even plastic versions that work at similar temperatures although I have not used these on tubing myself.
>>
I'm a retired stained glass designer-builder-restorer. In my business, I often used this method of bending tubes without kinking them or distorting them to ovals. The method works well.
However, the tubes I bent were a great deal smaller in diameter and thinner in gauge than a bass clarinet neck, and they were all made of copper, brass, tin or zinc. I was making hinges and such from raw metal stock, not monkeying with an antique lamp, for instance. If I messed up a hinge -- and I did mess one up now and then -- the metal was worth very little money. I tossed it in the recycling bin and forgot it. That's not something I want to risk having to do with a bass clarinet neck.
As an amateur musician and repairer, I wouldn't try to use this method on a clarinet neck unless I had definite information from a clarinet repair professional on what to use to pack the neck. I'd also want to know whether musical instrument repair pros heat the neck, and if so, how much. Put a kink or a major distortion in it and it's junk.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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