 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-28 18:30
.........that is, one that allows you to play IN-TUNE, not one that claims to be A=440.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2013-06-28 18:38
I just noticed my old m30 13 had gotten worn out. It had been dropped a few times as well. I noticed that B/F# had gotten narrow. C/F and B/E had lowered in pitch. This started developing with both clarinets at the same time so I assumed it was the mouthpiece.
I received a new batch of M30 13s and the issue was corrected to varying degrees with each mouthpiece. Consistency of tone and articulation was great on all of them though.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-28 19:47
A mouthpiece playing in tune, for the most part, depends on the player being able to play in tune. Sure there are some PMs that may play sharp or flat, in part that can adjusted buy changing a barrel. Almost all MPs I've ever tried, and I've tried many, play if tune. It's me not the mouthpiece. If a MPs is comfortable, flexible and gives me the sound I'm looking for than it's on me, and the same thing goes for you.
I went to Hans Meonnig, Sp?. many years ago when I was younger because my high B and C above the staff played very sharp but the E and F below were flat. After trying unsuccesfully to fix it for close to an hour he gave me a Buffet Stock mouthpiece and told me it was the fault of my MP. Of course it wasn't because I tired several MPs and everyone had the same problem so I had to buy a new clarinet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2013-06-28 22:47
When I'm speaking of intonation, I'm speaking about play each note centered with the pitch landing where it lands. Even with my old m30, I still compensated to play in tune in ensembles.
With the replacement m30, the tuner pegs pretty much green all the way up and down now. I think having a consistent centered scale is a great way to start. Of course, the musician has to be a voice and tune with in the context of the orchestra/ensemble correctly.
I would also venture to guess that with modern technology that the products available to us now are different than what was coming through Meonning's studio.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-06-28 23:09
Symmetry of manufacture- rails, lip and facing.
richard smith
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Author: William
Date: 2013-06-29 14:56
How it plays for me--not you. Consider response in all registers with varying aticulations (staccato, legato), tonal focus (especially in pppp) and dynamic flexability allowing you to play loud to soft with relative ease. I'm with EP--intonation is up to your "ear" and the length of you barrel, as long as the clarinets acoustical configurations are good, that is.........
Basically, if a mouthpiece sounds good, it is good.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2013-06-29 15:46
For me, the mouthpiece has to respond dependably in all musical situations. Not necessarily easily, but dependably--no squeaks, blown attacks, cracked notes, undertones, and the like.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-30 14:24
Probably the better way to say 'intonation' in this context is to say that you want a mouthpiece that doesn't GET IN THE WAY of good intonation.
An extreme example would be to take ANY mouthpiece designed for a French clarinet and put it atop a Boosey and Hawks 1010. The horrors of internal pitch problems are insurmountable since the design of one DOES NOT match the design of the other.
Much the same way, there are some mouthpieces sold as "one thing," or "another" that may just be a poor match for your clarinet.
It is YOUR job (and I mean YOU) to make sure some notes aren't too flat compared to some notes that are too high before you get stuck trying to fix a problem with barrels and what-not that you started with the wrong mouthpiece.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-06-30 16:26
Overall pitch level is not the most important part of a mouthpiece. If the scale of pitch throughout the instrument is even, then it's a matter of a barrel length. As long as it isn't going to a 68+ or 64-, it's not a problem and certainly not the most important aspect of a mouthpiece.
The overall feel of the mouthpiece is most important. It goes along with sound, but the feel of resistance, articulation, response, clarity, resonance, shape of sound, etc. are much more important. If all of these things are great for you, the overall pitch is the next thing to consider. Sometimes pitch is too far off for you to play comfortably and\or find a barrel to compensate, but much of the time this is not the case.
My main mouthpiece and my backup both tune at different levels. One of them plays well with a 66 moennig and the other one with a 67. One having a larger bore gives it a different sound and resistance than the other. If I dropped my main piece right before a concert, I can throw on the longer barrel and my backup mouthpiece and not miss a beat.
I think it's important to differentiate between pitch level and "tonal level". It is very possible to have a mouthpiece that is overall a high pitch, but tonally sounds flat in shape and vice versa. Sometimes they coincide, when the pitch level is low, but the reasons for the pitch level are imperfections (or unsuitable design characteristics for you) change the "tonal level". When the mouthpiece is too tonally flat, it can be because the bore is too large, baffle is too deep, overall volume is too much, and others. In this case, even using a shorter barrel won't counteract this
Intonation is only part of the equation.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-30 22:07
Ned,
You've completely lost me.
Firstly, if you take a CYLINDRICAL bore mouthpiece (designed for 1010 bore instruments .6 inch dia.) and put it on a French instrument, the pitches from note to note will be too wonky to fix. So my example (though crazy and extreme and no one would be that stupid) is an exaggeration of what sometimes occurs when mouthpieces of lower pitch (particularly those marketed as "rich and dark" sounding) are used on clarinets set up to accept a slightly higher pitched mouthpiece.
I have, and still do, contend there is more tendency for this problem across the board than we admit. Perhaps because we like spending money on barrels we don't need, or perhaps because barrel makers like this.
But I am at a complete loss to understand your term "tonally flat." Either something is flat (below A=440 vibrations per second here in the States) or it's not. Perhaps you mean a sound completely devoid of overtones, dead, one that doesn't carry. But I wish you'd clarify that point and not confuse this with pitch.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2013-07-01 03:16)
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Author: curlyev
Date: 2013-07-01 07:03
Most important thing...ummm.....that it has been refaced by Scott Kurtzweil? (nope, don't know him or work for him, I just am in LOVE with his work)! I'm partly kidding, obviously it has to play well with my clarinet (all the ones I have gotten from him have). It's not always easy to find the right mouthpiece for a Wooden 1950s Bundy.
Clarinet: Wooden Bundy 1950s
Mthpc: WW Co. B6 refaced by Kurtzweil
Lig: Various Rovners
Barrel/Bell: Backun
Reeds: Legere 3.75
OKC Symphonic Band (just started this summer)
*playing 22 years (with a 5 year hiatus) and counting*
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2013-07-01 17:07
1. response
2. intonation
3. range of tone quality
If the mouthpiece won't speak when you want it, it doesn't matter if it's in tune.
If you can't play in tune on the piece, no one cares about how lovely your tone is.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-07-02 04:35
Hi Paul (it's Nathan by the way)
Pitch flatness and tonal flattness were not meant to be confusing. Let me clarify.
Pitch:
If A=440 and you're playing 442, you're playing with sharp pitch.
If A= 442 and you're playing 440, you're playing with flat bitch.
Tonal level:
Some mouthpieces emphasis higher partials and decrease lows. The opposite if also true.
High tonal level can be cause by many things, but it's a sound that has a center that is tonally brighter\higher. Low tonal level if the opposite, a tonal level that is centered around a much darker tonal level. More emphasis on the lows of the sound rather than the high or middle).
What I originally said that tonal center is something that is differentiated from pitch lovel. It's possible to play tonally flat but be sharp in pitch, it's possible to play tonally sharp and be under pitch. This is a factor when you're considering both sound and intonation characteristics of the mouthpiece. Questions may be:
1) Is my town centered low, medium, or high is sound (tonally)?
With the answer to No. 1, the obvious question is, is that were you want to be with your sound? If yes, then going on to pitch. If you have found a mouthpiece that feels good, sounds good, and is overall comfortable play, then a tuner should be the next tool. Playing normally, and playing the way you know that mouthpiece sounds its best, play it with a tuner.
If you can play at the tonal level you want, and your clarinet is shown to be well in tune, you've got yourself a winner.
If it doesn't tune the way you like, (too flat for example), you have the option of trying it with a mm shorter barrel. Many times this is the solution.
If the mouthpiece plays great and has the tone centered where you want it, buying a new barrel isn't a huge deal.
If you tried different barrels and it didn't have enough improvement, then you go back to the drawing board.
The next thing that I would do (assuming you have ordered from a custom maker) send them back and tell him which one you really liked, and you'd get a batch of higher pitch blanks that the same facing could be applied on. Sometimes the tonality of higher pitched mouthpiece is higher than low pitched mouthpieces, so the same facing might not feel the best on a higher pitched mouthpiece.
It is true that the mouthpiece has to allow us to play in tune with relative ease. If you can't play in tune, you haven't finished finding a functional setup. It doesn't mean that you throw everything you know out the window and just buy a mouthpiece based on pitch.
You mention playing mouthpieces on the most opposite instrument for which the mouthpiece was made to play (or instrument). Yes, this will produce terrible results. They are made differently to different specs, I think most people know that.
Indeed, the scale of the instrument is often overlooked. Both for the instrument itself and the mouthpiece selection.
At the end of the day, find a mouthpiece that you like for sound and feel. Check it for overall intonation, if something isn't right try a different barrel. If that does't help, go back and talk to your mouthpiece guy to get what you need.
For even further clarification:
Tonally flat - some causes: low tongue position, lax embouchure, wrong voicing
. Result: A sound that lacks upper partials, sound tends to spread, many times with loss of focus and sound fuzzy\dull
Tonally high- Too much bite, too light a reed,, etc
Result: Piercing or overly bright sound, more difficulty getting full and dark sounds.
Pitch: Is it sharp or flat overall? Are there any areas that are problematic? If it passes this test, then you're done.
If not: Try barrels and see if pitch level is easily fixable.
If you still aren't satisfied: You're now more educated having gone through the process from selecting a mouthpiece when you go back to trying different pitched mouthpiece. Any custom maker can take your thoughts and make you a few that are at the desired pitch level and you're golden.
I hope that clears up the tonal (sound) vs. Pitch level.
It's not that common for people to go beyond just changing barrels. Having a few good mouthpieces of varying pitch can save you when a stage is cool or hot and it's suddenly hard to play in tune. Barrel options are a good idea as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-02 10:07
Thanks Nathan (sorry I got that wrong.....and I think I've done that before!),
I just think that the "flat/high" designators might be confusing (at least to us older, more generally confused types).
My further clarification in the past had involved Norman Smale (I believe) who was in agreement that once you perturb the 12ths to a degree where some of you chalumeau notes become too flat (such as first space F) then shorter barrels only correct THAT point in the equation and make your clarion version too high. In other words, now you have a problem that cannot be evened out, only made bad in other places.
I'm not saying YOU have that problem, but you hear lots of students who do.
I think I'll start making custom barrels :-)
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-07-02 23:02
Hi Paul,
To quote myself from my first post on this thread "If the scale of pitch throughout the instrument is even, then it's a matter of a barrel length".
Yes indeed, the overall scale is very important. I'm sorry, perhaps I write too much...
Keep in mind: the clarinet has problem areas for tuning, A clarinets are usually worse. If there is a problem on ONE NOTE, it's not a mouthpiece problem. A part of the instrument being particularly high or low, it could be the mouthpiece.
The M13 for example, (13 meaning to be used on an R13), lowers pitch in the left hand, both upper and lower. I've played a number of them that this adjustment to bring the pitch down was applied, and it seems to both lower the overall pitch, but makes the scale not as even. That's the problem with attempting to lower the pitch in certain areas of the horn, you can end up with a bad scale.
That all depends on your instrument and that particular mouthpiece (some play higher than others, even amogst the m series).
BEWARE: Let's take for example, B and C above the staff on A clarinet. This notes (when you come at them with the same embouchure etc. that would for notes above and below) they are pretty sharp on R13's.
The bad way to go about it: Find a mouthpiece that plays low enough to bring these pitches into more easy comfort. Check the tuning of the rest of the instrument to notice you've done more damage than good! In that situation, having a repair tech advise you on ways to bring those particular notes down without destroying the scale.
BEWARE(2): As I stated before, if the SCALE is even, but it's riding high in pitch, try a longer barrel. If that doesn't fix it, it's not for you. UNLESS you are working with a mouthpiece tech who can alter the bore and other factors to bring the pitch down. The only problem with the last part is that it could change the sound that you're after. If the barrel didn't work (or you can't afford or get a hold of the right size), you're best off starting over.
As Ed always points out: There are MANY factors that go into tuning. My addition to that is to do your best to isolate variables (scientific method). Check embouchure, air, tongue position, the condition of the instrument, reed choice, and sometimes even ligatures.
A good mouthpiece is one that operates with ease and efficiency in any musical situation. It should be, in and of itself, a work of art. A zinner blank out of the box is not a work of art, it's a good piece of machinery. The mouthpiece should allow you to shape the sound, have a variety of articulation intensities, and many other things.
Most important to me when looking at a mouthpiece is that it can be used with a 3.5 VD or V12 VD. Not having to use a bight and force type of approach opens up the possibilities for musical expression simply not possible before.
Of the two more popular mouthpieces (sort of), I can take the higher pitch E blank, re-craft the rails, do any baffle\chamber adjustments, apply my facing, and go to work with a 67 instead of a 66. The A blank, with the same adjustments, can allow me to use a 66 just fine.
In the Zinner situation, the E (higher pitch) blank has a higher tonal level as well. The A blanks (lower pitch) have a more dark and low tonal level. So in this case, they coincide (as is often the case with different pitched mouthpieces).
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-07-02 23:30
My "short" thought on this whole topic is this. Write down all of the equipment you're using. Find out what each piece is doing for you (Moennig barre is focusing, a Tosca is tuned lower in areas, etc).
Questions could be "what parts are adding\subtracting resistance?"
"what is making my sound brighter or darker?"
and so on.
At this point you'll be educated about your next equipment choices If your instrument plays in tune comfortably and you're looking about mouthpieces to adjust sound and feel, then you'll want to start by trying mouthpieces that keep that scale and pitch you're used to.
Don't ever rule out the possibility that changing one thing can change another.
___________________________________________________________
*Keep reading if you can!*
Most of the "new mouthpiece" market is dominated by the lower pitch zinner, so when you start to look for mouthpiece to order on trial, learning the different between the two planks and as many other things that are out there is extremely helpful. It is helpful to the mouthpiece craftsman so that you don't waste time trying mouthpieces that are not what you're looking for.
Learn your equipment (and style of playing) and how it shapes your interaction with the instrument and read as much about it as you can so you can be an informed customer, whether it be a mail order large scale dealer, or a small custom shop.
The most comprehensive site with information ranging from rubber making, mouthpiece history, design philosophy, to FAQ's is www.behnmouthpieces.com
I know many people see me and others who promote certain things as being a slave to the person they are mentioning. I can say with certainty that I check every mouthpiece makers website every week. Do I find things that change my mind on a daily basis, generally no, but it is very important to see the overall trends and see what mouthpieces are being offered. I support Brad Behn on this forum when appropriate because I think he has the most information, the most variety in blanks, designs, and innovations than anyone else I've seen.
I can say that I've tried just about everything that is available in the U.S. (includes France and England). I've gone in open minded, looking to be won-over by this person or that person's mouthpiece design (since most are using the same blank here in the U.S. I look at facing choices and any adjustments they've made to the blank). Nothing stood up to what I have now, not even close.
My recommendation, if you're curious about a person's mouthpiece style, send them a mouthpiece to reface. You can "test out" their work for relatively low cost. Send to whoever you feel like and see if something catches you. If so, then go on to see if they have anything in their "arsenal" that would be even better for you.
Many times people come to my mouthpiece studio and ask what I think of various people's refacing jobs. I don't generally say "oh this sucks" or anything mean, I just describe what they did (many times showing them the measurements) and explaining why they feel the way they feel when they play it. Overall mouthpiece education leads to people being on better equipment leading to more meaningful musical connections to audiences.
Disclaimer: I have no financial connection to Brad Behn. I encourage people to try him out, and read what he has written on the subject simply because I'm a happy customer and know that there is a wealth of knowledge. The only "win" for me if someone uses his mouthpieces is a win for music (since they found something that helps them make better music). Any improvement in setup makes that possible, regardless of who made it.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-07-03 12:11
I think intonation, response and flexibility are at the top of my list.
Once again, when choosing a mouthpiece, play what works for you. All of the other factors may be a nice, but it all boils down to that one thing.
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