 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-03-23 16:43
Hello everyone,
I don't why I am posting this message but, I guess I need to tell someone what I need to say.
I just have spent 5 days in London, trying to prepare myself for a music competition in Switzerland. Studying with an amazing guy called John Davies. Davies used to be professor of clarinet at the royal academy London. He's now retired but, many of his students have become very famous. Students like Anthony Pay..
basically I went to him, thinking. "bah... He's probably a good teacher... I'm a good clarinetist, Things'll go well".
NO things didn't go well, things got to a point where, we had to spend 1 hour on two bars... Me trying as hard as I can to get it right... but no it was still not right... basically... I was sent home to go practice.. I did practice 12 hours in two days.. but... it still wasn't right.. The pieces are quite hard though : Lutoslawski, Dance Preludes, Martinu, Sonatine, Niels W. Gade, Fantaisiestycker, Schibler COncertino.
But we were not working on something really complicated. Just slow bits.. Just trying to get attack, tone, dynamics, tempo and phrasing right.
Anyway... I am now having to imagine what level his students are which have graduated.
I thought I was good... considering that I am principal clarinetist of Geneva symphony, and that I have won some youth competition, have been principal clarinetist at the international honor band and choir festival in Vienna during two years and am studying with two very famous clarinetists in Switzerland .(Thomas Friedli and Steven Kanoff)
No, I just feel like an ant in front of an elephant. I'm a bit depressed cause I lost all my pride of my playing, I feel like a beginner, trying to do something and not be able to get it. I am even considering to stop playing clarinet... It's terrible to say that.... Oh well..
I betta go practice... Vgot my last lesson with him tomorow !
Ciao
Daniel from Geneva, but in London still
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-23 18:09
Daniel, if a lesson teacher makes you feel as if you know everything, than you probably aren't learning much. My lesson teacher will often tear down everything I do, telling me it is wrong. No matter how much I practice it, or improve it, he can always pick out something wrong, where an improvement can be made. But then again, this is what makes him a good teacher. Although there are times when I think he is a major pain in the butt, this is a good thing. I have learnt more with him than I have any other of my lesson teachers. Hang in there. It's worth it. :-) -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Jeff Forman
Date: 2001-03-23 18:58
Nate, I have to disagree, somewhat. Teaching need not be a demaning, demoralizing exercise where the teacher offers no praise whatsoever, tears everything down and just tries to berate the student. And from Daniel's bio, I doubt if his playing was that bad anyway.
I have no problem with the teacher spending two hours or two months on two bars if he is looking to impart something specific. And maybe at that level of playing, it is about subtle tones and attacks and approaches. You know, the Orthodox Jewish scholars can spend weeks interpreting one word of the Talmud. Greg Norman (the golfer) once said he was working on something in his golf swing that would net him a quarter of a stroke per round, or one stroke per tournament. So, at the highest level of any endeavor, the minutiae can make the difference.
That having been said, there are ways to go about the exercise. Perhaps the teacher had something so subtle and so esoteric that it needed almost psychoanalytical intensity. But if he has nothing positive to say and feels the need to tear down students, then he ought to get out of teaching. When a principal clarinetist of a symphony loses all his pride in playing, to the point of even thinking about stopping playing, then I think the teacher has done a disservice.
I am glad to hear that this man is retired because at least he won't be demoralizing loads of students.
Just my two cents. And Daniel, I say ignore the guy's bashing. I assume you paid for the lessons. My advice is for you to be the consumer and take what you can from the lesson you paid for. Discard that which is unsettling. If you got a pearl or two, at the level you already play, then great. If you got absolutely nothing from him, then he failed, not you.
Jeff
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-03-23 19:06
Daniel,
Learn from it. That's all I have to say. It's not easy; noone ever said attempting to acheive perfection was. Standards are different...I think this is a good thing you are experiencing. No matter how good you, or someone, is, there are always people better. Everyone needs to know and recognize it and occassionally be humbled..as I can see you are. Being humbled is not a bad thing...it's wonderful!
Best of luck in your endeavors!
Julia
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Author: Brent
Date: 2001-03-23 20:43
I think this level of interference in a musicians devolpment leads to stale players. Style is sometimes a lack of perfection. An artist should explore their work alone if they want to develop to their fullest. Just my opinion.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-03-23 21:14
Daniel -
The important question, I guess, is whether you could hear what Davies was talking about. If he was simply demanding that you play something again, but better this time, without telling you what you were doing wrong, then his advice was not much use. If, however, he was pointing out small flaws in your playing, but you just couldn't correct them on the spot, then he was doing you a favor -- showing you the difference between your playing and, say, Tony Pay's playing.
This is not an unusual teaching style. As I said a few days ago, Leon Russianoff did the same. A hot-shot student would come to him and blast out, say, the Nielsen Concerto. Russianoff would start a metronome at 60 and say, "Now give me a C major scale, 1 note per beat." Invariably, that scale would have a bunch of tiny uneven transitions and blips. That's where the lessons would start, taking the student back to the basics to learn them right.
The Herbert L. Clark autobiography, which I also mentioned (<http://abel.hive.no/oj/musikk/trompet/clarke/clarke-series.html.), tells exactly the same story.
Larry Combs -- and the entire Chicago Symphony -- can play for half an hour without making a mistake. That's the mountain you have to climb.
Rachmaninoff was one of the greatest pianists ever, with a flawless technique. I have read that a colleague came to his house and heard someone practicing at an impossibly slow speed. It was Rachmaninoff, going through a Chopin etude note by note to make sure everything was perfect. When I was in college, David Oistrakh came to give a recital. Everyone gathered around the practice room while he warmed up. Only a few people stuck it out, since he started out with whole notes, dead slow, and worked on the simplest scales and arpeggios for nearly an hour.
The things Davies points out can't be changed on the spot, or even after a few days of practice. You go away and work on them for a year. Davies probably should have been kinder to you. On the other hand, I don't think he would have been hard on you if you didn't have talent or if he didn't think you had it in you. Remember that you came to him for just a few lessons. He may feel that he needs to give you everything at once.
Your contributions to this community are always excellent and well informed. Your achievements show you are a fine player. You can hardly blame Davies for wanting to help you play even better. Please take it in that way.
Keep your head up. You've obviously got what it takes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-23 21:15
Jeff, perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say here... I did not mean to say that a lesson teacher has to be cruel and impossibly demanding. But there must be a certain amount of push when it comes to learning. Again I say, if a lesson teacher makes you feel like you know everything, you probably aren't learning much. For example, a lesson teacher that I once had, offered nothing but praise and encouragement, but no push. Everything was always "good enough". I didn't really learn a whole lot from that... My point is, a good lesson teacher teaches students never to settle for "good enough". There are always improvements that can be made. Granted, it is never a good thing when a teacher makes the student feel like an "ant". Yet it is a good thing to realize that you may not be the best clarinetist out there, and that there is always room for improvement. Yeah, I think that Daniel's teacher went a bit too far with this, but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it, in the hopes that the experience will make you a better clarinetist. Yeah, my pride as a clarinetist has taken a few good hits now and then, but I've gotten past it. Confidence should be maintained, yet kept in check. It's a careful balance. For example, my lesson teacher does push me, but he knows that I can handle it, too. Also, he doesn't try to push students too far, too fast. Things are learned one step at a time. If you think you're going to teach someone who's been playing clarinet for only a week to play Rhapsody in Blue, and skip all of the other things that need to be learned first, you've got another thing coming.
>And from Daniel's bio, I doubt if his playing was that bad anyway.
I hope you aren't inferring that my playing is... :-) Yes, it appears that Daniel is quite a fine clarinetist indeed. Still, that doesn't mean there aren't things that can't be improved upon. I have yet to meet a clarinetist who can play perfectly.
I suppose there is a flip side to the coin as well. As Daniel is a fine clarinetist, and like knows well what he's doing, it could be a matter of difference in opinion. Perhaps those two bars don't even need major improvement anyway. Perhaps the teacher expects the student to play in the style he does. Everyone does have their own individual playing style. It could be a matter that the teacher thinks HIS way is the best, even if it is not. There are people out there like that. I guess I don't know enough about the situation to say for sure...
I hope this makes what I tried to say a little more clear. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-03-23 21:15
Guess that shows it doesn't always matter that your teacher is well-known. You can have an unknown who's really good for you and gets good results, while also having famous teachers who you will struggle with.
Meri
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-23 21:21
Well said, Ken! You hit the nail right on the head. Bravo! Also, Meri is right. It doesn't matter how well known or respected your teacher may be. You need to find the teacher who's really good for you. That's all that matters. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-03-23 22:20
As we age, we ** men ** become:
Wise, insightful, understanding, peaceful - we become old masters, guru.
OR
Dogmatic, rigid, impatient, angry - we become harsh task masters, obsessive excentric.
Who knows what we have over there.
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Author: Jean Dagenais
Date: 2001-03-23 23:27
Hello Daniel,
I am really sorry that you had to go this kind of experience, and that you feel depressed and considering stopping to play the clarinet.
I am an amateur musician, and I do not have experience with this level of teaching, but I understand the impact of these experiences on our self-worth and our ability to learn and growth.
There are a few ways to think about this experience in order to learn something (even if this is not related to getting a better technique at the clarinet!).
Meri pointed that the match between the teacher and the student is extremely important. I think that for this experience, the match was not there!
I consider that a good teacher(leader) understands the needs of each student and adapt the his/her style to the situation. Some teachers are more one way (dogmatic), where other are flexible and consider their own motivations, the needs of student, and the context of the teaching situation.
I want to mention that you always have the choice to accept what is said and decide if it fits you. If it does not fit you, then you are free to say so.
Please consider that this was a difficult 1 week of bad experience, but you still have 10s of years of good ones ahead of you.
Regards,
Jean
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-03-24 01:57
the greatest of anything have teachers. I think of all the top tennis players and there sit thier teachers. The teacher or coach look for the tiny things that you are over looking. If they couldn't find anything to show improvement they why have them around.
Be glad that you have something more to learn. The fun stops when you stop learning.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-03-24 10:55
I never played well enough to have a teacher of this importance, nor a position of your rank. How fortunate you are to experience the top area of your profession. I shall continue to play band music and the circus music and rag tunes I so enjoy, and you must continue to perform at your highest level, never looking back and never being satisfied. You are where many of us would like to be. Hang in there!!!!!!!!!
Jim
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-03-24 16:32
Interesting subject. Two points, since everyone's being so candid/helpful: Daniel, if you haven't already, go to your teacher and confront him. Tell him precisely what you've shared with everyone here. If he still continues his directive approach and hammering, I’d dump him, he's clearly demonstrated by his actions he doesn't care. It's one thing to break a person down to build them back up, but he's not teaching you anything if you want to quit and toss away years of hard work and investment in your craft, not to mention a change of career. Any good, experienced teacher/professor who has students playing at the "professional level", or even a colleague knows to adjust their teaching style and work together as partners "suggesting" areas of improvement, not "dictate" like they're a beginner-intermediate HS kid. Also, beware of teachers with a "brow-beating" method; they have a tendency of practicing what I call "resurrection ego". They intentionally turn their students into "a clone" of themselves and stifle personal development, musical maturity, self-identity and evolution. I don't care how good a big name player/teacher is, you want to grow, sound and play like yourself, not them. Unless you have to play "the game" to get that top chair it's simply not worth the $80+ an hour headache just to get their name on your resume.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-03-25 00:57
Daniel, Don't ever forget that you got your position in your orchestra because people obviously like what you do. Nobody can take that away from you. You have reached a very high level of playing already and I admire you still confronting teachers.
I have been in a Philharmonic Orchestra for five years now. Before that I did 15 years of orchestra playing in various orchestras, playing in the worlds greatest halls (including Geneva).
I graduated from my Conservatory in 1983 and never took a lesson since out of fear to end up in a similar emotional stress as you are in right now. Not that I didn't need lessons but I was too afraid of loosing confidence in my own playing if someone criticized me too hard. After nine years of studying the clarinet I was pretty aware of what I wanted to achieve and I was very self analytic when practicing.
I started to build up an integrity around my playing and around my musicianship based on my qualities, not forgetting my shortcomings that I still work on up to this day.
It's a lifetime task to reach for perfection and a game you can't win. The day you consider yourself perfect it's time to quit. Than the excitement is probably gone already.
What I'm trying to say is that you have already proven that you are a first rank clarinetist. What you need is integrity as a shield to criticism. Some teachers have a very old fashioned way of passing messages that can be even insulting. Try to read between the lines to hear what the core message is in the instructions. But never take insults. You just don't need that.
Shortly after my wife had became principal flute in a prestigious radio symphony orchestra she took a lesson with a famous teacher (Swiss, by the way). The first lesson she barely put the flute to her mouth before he started: "no no no, vat ar' yo' doin', yo' can't make mosic like zat'". She took four lessons, than she dumped him.
It's with teachers as with conductors: If they are good but nasty, try to survive. if they are bad, f---'em.
Alphie
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-03-25 17:19
Ick!
If he cannot teach someone like you, he is not much of a teacher. I guess some very talented people survived him.
A university near me is well regarded because incredibly good mathematicians and phycists come out. They only admit the best students and then flunk and discourage a full 2/3s of them. Those that live through it are really good, but not because of the teaching, because of the culling. Those that give up were really good too. What a waste.
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Author: Kim L
Date: 2001-03-25 17:46
Just recently, the clarinet majors in my university changed clarinet teachers. In a word, she is sort of a bitch. She expects so much of us. At one point I had lost all my confidence because of how much she insulted the section after just one sectional. This teacher expects high quality. If it isn't great, she won't take it! Every lesson we work on tone quality, attacks, dynamics, and phrasing. A pain in the butt if you ask me. But, after five months under her tutelage, I have improved so much and have high confidence and higher self-esteem. I have a better tone quality, a better embouchure, and better command of my playing.
Hang in there. Unless you think that you are learning absolutely nothing, keep this teacher. I think they are hard to come by!
Good luck and have fun.
Kim
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Author: graham
Date: 2001-03-26 07:23
Ok Daniel. You've been very open in saying you had a difficult time with this professor, but you have not said exactly what the difficulty was. You mention attack/tone etc., but exactly what was it that was going wrong? Or was it going wrong at all? Perhaps it was more a case of "Let's concentrate on making these two bars as perfect as they can be and that will be an example for the rest of the piece."
We have absolutely no idea whether this man was being a "bitch" as some people like to put it, or being very constructive. How often have we read people reminiscing about their wonderful teacher and how he/she painstaklingly took a whole lesson giving new insights into two apparently ordinary bars?
But in the final analysis, i agree with Alphie. I don't see why you are going to strangers for lessons a few days before a competition. Perhaps that is the real lesson. Time to row your own boat.
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-03-26 15:26
Hello, everyone !
I am back in Switzerland now, and am very happy to see that so many people have replied. THanx to everyone for sharing ideas.
There are a couple of questions I need to answer.
For those who have criticized Davies. NO, he's not that kind of person..
He is a very good man.
First of all, I got free lessons from him... from one of the best teachers in the world.
Secondly, he didn't demoralize me. I demoralized myself, by seeing how far from him I was in terms of level, and because of the height of the standards he was giving me.
Basically the two bars that took one hour showed that I didn't need to spend hours on moving my fingers the fastest possible, but trying to get very basic things right such as breathing, tonghing. I knew I wouldn't get better really in four days. But I came out with a totally different vision on music. A very humble vision.
The last day, I met Karl Leister, Davies's best friend. Talking to him, I realized that first of all, to get to a level such as Leister's, there was a lot of practice involved, at least 6 hours every day. And that only when you get to that point, then you can start playing music and only music. No blowing, moving fingers, or tonghing.. just music.
Otherwise, apart from the music lessons, I was lucky to appreciate one of the rare originall paintings of Karl Maria Von Weber, hanged in Davies's house. (If you check out Leister's latest recording of Weber concertos, you will see the picture of this painting on the back of the cover.)
I will definatly go back to Davies's in London, but I know now how I will be have to prepare.
Vgot 4 weeks before contest. I'll need to practice 4 * 7 * 6 = 168 hours.
Good luck Dan
Thanx again to everyone.
Regards
Daniel, Geneva Switzerland
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