 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-10-01 10:32
Why did the clarinet makers switch from unplated German silver which is superior to nickel and silver plated keys?
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-10-01 12:07
German silver, aka nickel silver and a whole raft of other names, is an alloy of nickel, copper and often zinc. It's harder than a lot of other metals so tended to be preferred for woodwind keys. Quite often you see nickel silver keys that have been silver plated so it's not an either-or situation.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-01 12:40
Depending on the player's skin and perspiration pH (low pH being more acidic), nickel silver will wear out to a greater or lesser degree over time so silver plating will make the finish more durable and protect the base metal.
If you've seen plated keys or pillars where the plating has worn through in spots, the base metal (nickel silver) is often eroded away in those areas of plating damage or wear. It's not so noticeable on unplated keywork as the erosion is more evenly distributed over the keywork (but still more pronounced in areas of high contact) instead of being concentrated on small areas.
I've seen sax keys which have been worn down by a player with acidic perspiration, but high spots remained where the hard solder joints are. On my bari sax, where the lacquer has worn through on some keys, the brass has pitted and eroded in those areas.
I had a look at a clarinettist's Yamaha CSGH where the thumb tube had been eroded away leaving it concave and very uncomfortable as there were sharp edges and points around it, so plating does offer protection to the base metal against erosion unless it gets damaged.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-10-01 14:04
Jerry Vabulus, a terrific player in NYC, had sweat that ate through his German silver keys in less than two years. I saw it. Al Gallodoro had sweat so acidic that he had to have every piece of metal on his clarinet, bass clarinet and alto sax heavily gold plated.
Ken Shaw
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-10-01 20:18
The problem with pure nickel silver is that it tarnishes faster than plating. The problem with plating is that it wears through (especially nickel plate - good silver plate seems to last decades).
But the thing that makes me curious is why they changed the nickel silver composition under the plate. I have a couple of silver-plated instruments from 20s/30s where the silver plate has worn through in a few places; but you hardly notice, because the metal underneath is really nice and silvery. But with modern instruments, the base metal underneath has a different unattractive yellowish hue, which really shows itself as soon as the plating goes (and I don't think I'm being confused by the copper flash that some makers apply
before the silver). So the composition of modern nickel silver seems different: was this to save money or (being generous) was the alloy changed to make the keys harder to bend, with the manufacturers thinking that looks no longer mattered?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-10-01 23:00
I asked precisely this question when visiting Leblanc HQ in Paris about 30 years ago. The answer I got from a pretty senior person in the group was that the marketing people were insisting that plating was essential for sales purposes!!
Re John's point - yes pure nickel may tarnish faster than plating - but with high quality nickel silver you don't really perceive it as tarnishing just that the keywork develops a golden-ish hue over the years which incidentally I find quite attractive.
I have many old instruments, some over a century old, and their natural surface is much more attractive than a tarnished plate and especially tarnished nickel plate.
Yes from seeing the many hundreds of instruments pass through my workshop I also suspect that the quality of the base metal being used under the modern plate is often of inferior quality.
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2012-10-05 15:13
Thanks for this discussion, as this topic is very much on my mind:
Bb Buescher True-Tone has some worn spots, so we'll have it re-plated. But the base metal appears fairly silvery yet.
My Bohemia-era metal Kohler Eb alto has spots that are worn right down to bare brass, which looks quite orange.
I have a (wooden) Bb Cartier with keys whose plating is worn clean off, and the base metal has an almost leaden look, dull and grey.
I'm going to be very interested to see what happens with re-plating these three very different-looking instruments!
Klarnetisto
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-10-05 16:42
I have a similae question. In 1935 my clarinet was a Grevile Paris metal one. It was chromium platted as were the keys. Have any since used chrome for plating keys on nonmetal clarinets?
richard smith
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-05 16:46
I've only seen chrome plating on an Orsi clarinet with mazak keys, Buffet bassoons (French system), an older Fox bassoon, a B&H piccolo body and an Olds trumpet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-10-05 16:47)
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2012-10-05 18:14
I suspect that my Cartier had chromium plating -- didn't really look like it had been silver or nickel.
Klarnetisto
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2013-06-08 00:39
I'm trying to restore a 1936 Buffet pre-R13. The wood's in excellent condition, apart from one chipped tonehole chimney. But my problem is the keys - they seem to have been chrome plated, and the chrome's been badly scratched and pitted on most of the keys.
I've started buffing the keys gently with a buffing compound, just to try and get an even level finish. The base layer's polishing up nicely where the plating's completely worn away, but the plating's so hard, where it's still there, that it won't buff very easily.
I'm assuming this is chrome, as that's what it looks like to me, but could it be nickel? I haven't seen this kind of plating before, on old or newer instruments.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-08 00:52
Has it got a blueish tinge to it? Chrome has a blueish look and nickel is sort of brownish-yellowy by comparison.
Your bath or kitchen sink taps are usually chrome plated (unless they're gold plated) so see if the plating is similar to this.
If you know anyone with a plastic Artley, Bundy or Vito clarinet or an older Yamaha 26II or Buffet B12, they've got nickel plated keywork so see how they compare to your Buffet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-06-08 02:46
I believe there were some concerns with the nickel content of keywork. Some players were having problems with dermatitis, this being a reaction in some people to the presence of nickel. I can;t vouch for the accuracy of this, but I read it some time ago.
Tony F.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 13:45
A more yellow base metal presumably has less nickel, hence more copper. And the more yellow base metal is far more prone to tarnish. (Compare the cupro-nickel coins that are very slow to tarnish, and are very slow to look yellow, rather just a dullness to the finish.
And this difference is very obvious in flute tenons, where there typically is no plating. American-made, plated cupro-nickel flutes, eg Gemeinhardt/Artley/Armstrong/Bundy have quite yellow tenons, which tarnish very easily, especially if the flute is left assembled. By contrast, most Asian-made flutes, notably Yamaha and Pearl, have a far whiter metal that resists tarnish.
BTW, I suspect that when erosion of the base metal is more pronounced than the surrounding parts that are still plated, this is not due to actual wear, but rather due to "galvanic" corrosion, involving dissimilar metals (the base and the plating) and electrolyte (perspiration) If so, then ironically this would not occur if the plating was not there.
Post Edited (2013-06-08 13:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-08 13:50
It does happen with unplated keys, but the wear is more uniform so not as noticeable compared to keys where the plating has worn through and the base metal gets eroded.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 15:28
Perhaps both phenomena are involved.
I have seen severe pits adjacent to plating, that could only be explained by galvanic corrosion.
Some people like unplated cupro-nickel because it is less slippery. So perhaps that increased friction means more wear.
(When I was a kid my sterling silver flute got shallow, whitish areas on it where it contacted and amalgamed with tiny drops of mercury I had spilt all over my bed cover. Hehe!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-06-08 16:36
Would mercury destroy the molecular structure of solid silver in large quantities in a similar way gallium destroys aluminium?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-09 06:03
All I know is that mercury dissolves silver to make an alloy ("amalgam"). Remember the old dental nurses mixing silver dust with mercury in a muslin cloth, and sqeezing out the excess, to use for amalgam fillings?
I count myself lucky that the mercury on my bed did not actually eat holes through my flute!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-09 13:35
When I was in junior high, a fellow had a container of mercury. For a nickel, he would spread a little mercury on a silver dime, quarter or half-dollar. (I haven't seen one a half-dollar in years, though I believe the mint still makes them.)
The mercury gave the silver a mirror finish. Alas, it turned dull in a few hours. I was also told that mercury was ruinous to gold.
In today's nanny state, mercury is forbidden in any amount. I read a newspaper story that when a kid broke a mercury thermometer in science lab, releasing a tiny drop, they evacuated the school and brought in an emergency team in hazmat suits.
Mercury is nasty, but the over-reaction is just as bad. Nobody will play one of my clarinets, or even one of my recorders, for fear of contagion, and I can't play one of theirs.
My brother's ex-mother-in-law had a golden retriever that loved to gobble up dead mice. When he did, the ex-MIL would force the poor dog's mouth open and scrub his teeth for 5 minutes straight.
Ken Shaw
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