 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-03-22 02:49
I've got to have some good luck coming my way sometime in the near future.. you know how i said my clarinet cracked 2 hours before my college audition?.. so i've been playing on a cracked horn for a month, with the music store's promise to send me a new upper joint. Well, opening night for Fiddler on the Roof is tomorrow. After rehearsal tonight i swabbed it out like i normally do, and checked the crack to make sure it didnt get any bigger. Noticed a drop of moisture about halfway down the crack. upon closer inspection saw that there was a line of water alllll the way down the crack. So the crack is all the way through now. And its getting wider. My teacher couldnt see it very well before, she can definately see it now. i'm guessing this is probably from my 5 hour a day practices for musical.. i've been more demanding of my horn than i normally am. so more stress = bigger crack, i think. Grrrr.... I guess i have to call the music store tomorrow and say "look, you said you would get me a new upper joint, is it here yet, because my clarinet cracked more and i have 4 musical performances in the next 3 days and solo/ensemble contest next saturday. if it decides not to play anymore you better give me a loaner. a nice loaner. or i will be very mad."
ok i am done venting now
*ashley*
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-22 12:58
Plenty sympathy from me. The whole instrument should be replaced immediately, or money back so that you can get another from elsewhere.
We have a "Consumer Guarantees Act" that gives buyers clear and strong rights. Do you have an equivalent that you can wave at this tardy store?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-03-22 14:10
Ashley -
In an emergency like this, your teacher is your best resource. First, he or she probably has a spare instrument that you could borrow. Second, the music store should give you a loaner, particularly if your teacher backs you up.
Everybody has this happen occasionally. I had to do an audition years ago on a strange instrument because the repair shop hadn't gotten around to finishing an overhaul.
You will get through this. The consolation is that you have a good war story.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2001-03-22 17:05
Ashley: My advice is, if you like the clarinet you have, get the crack fixed--you probably will forget it is even there. A new replacement section is not recommended as it will change the playing characteristics of your clarinet and there is a good chance that it may not play as good as it did with the original section. In any case, you might be better off to take a trip down to Casico Music just outside Milwaukee (or better yet, International Music Suppliers in Des Plaines, Ill--bigger inventory) and check out a new clarinet. They are used to dealing with top professionals and both are close to the national distributors of Buffet (Libertyville, Ill) and LeBlanc (Kenosha) and you can expect prompt service and lots of sympathy. Someday, this will be a good story to tell your students at the end of rehearsal. It may "crack" them up!!!!!!!! Good clarineting.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-03-22 21:26
I offered the same humble advice awhile back and stand by it. I still wouldn't be so quick to toss that cracked joint in the Goodwill box yet. Even though the crack has gone all the way through the horn is still repairable under skilled hands and not beyond hope...new is NOT always better. It would be another matter if it was a Greenline and crumbling right before your eyes. Myself, I couldn't stand having a mis-matched horn from different periods of production regardless how good the combination. If you've had the horn for at least a year, your hands are form-fitted and accustomed to that joint...the keys might even be worn down in the shape/natural playing position of your hand. It's challenging enough for us to consistently get those fingers in the sweet spots; we don't need any more headaches. What happens if after playing on that new joint a couple months you don't like it? Even at the intermediate level, you know better, simply won't tolerate anything less and might find yourself shelling out another $2,000+ for a new one. Now you can fashion that clarinet table lamp you always wanted.
Posted: If it was me, I wouldn't be so quick to swap out the cracked joint for a replacement even if it IS new, consider keeping the original and getting it pinned especially if it's only a hairline crack and you're happy with your horn to begin with. No matter how you slice it, you're going to wind up with a mis-matched horn you'll have to live with, and it can and WILL be a totally different instrument. I'd call the manufacturer and tell them you want to keep both for 15-30 days to play, then compare running the new joint through its paces like any other new horn you're trying out and scrutinize closely. You can always send the replacement back with no problem.
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-22 23:00
Hmmm... A good point is brought up here, Ashley. You should consider having it repaired. Sometimes there are stresses in the wood from the day it was made. Eventually, under tension, it cracks. Sometimes when it cracks, this tension is relieved from the wood, and the horn can actually play better. I have to admit, sometimes a crack, although repaired, can have adverse affects on the playability of the horn. Still, it is a given that replacing a joint will change how the clarinet plays. I would very much recommend trying to have it fixed before giving up on it. Also, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but you probably shouldn't have been playing on a cracked horn, as that only made it worse. I know it is hard to give up your beloved horn for a while, but sometimes you have to do it. You should have at least had them do something to repair the crack, while you were waiting for a new joint. I do not know how they are at your music store, but where I bought my R-13, they are very good about such things. A little over a week ago, I opened my case to find a big crack, all of the way down my barrel. Of course I was angry, as well as horrified, as I take good care of my horn. Anyway, I took it to the local music store and had a trusted repair tech take a look at it. I discussed whether I should have it repaired, or replaced. I believe replacing it would be covered under Buffet's warranty. Still, he fixed it, and said if it cracked further, that they would replace it, no problem. He did quite a marvelous job fixing it, too. You would not even be able to tell where he filled the crack, unless you knew you were looking for it. It plays just the same, too. Still, you are dealing with a more serious crack, and in a more serious place. I am not sure how it would play after being fixed, as more damage has been done than the initial crack. It has been allowed to spread. You would have to see if they would be willing to try to fix it before getting a replacement joint. That way you would be able to tell whether or not it plays like it used to. Other than that, all I can say, is don't give up. You'll make it through everything in one piece. Even if your clarinet doesn't, in the hands of a skilled repair tech, it can be made as good as new. :-) -- Nate Zeien
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-03-22 23:29
William,
Boosey and Hawkes is departing Libertyville for California. I believe most of the operations have already moved.
John
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Author: sylvain
Date: 2001-03-23 16:41
Next time you buy a horn, get a Greenline. It has just as good a sound as any wood clarinet and will never crack.
-S
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-23 18:27
Hmmm... From what I've heard, Greenlines can crack, but the bigger problem is they are more brittle than wooden clarinets. If you want a good durable clarinet, get a metal clarinet. Granted, most of them are less than desirable student models, but if you can find a good pro model, and bring it into the shop for repair and adjustments, there you go. No more cracking! Metal can crack too, but under circumstances that would have destroyed a plastic or wooden clarinet! Just my two cents worth... :-) -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Kontragirl
Date: 2001-03-23 19:30
That's horrible! I would take it to the music store, get it pinned, and then switch it out for the new joint if it ever comes. Since I believe your clarinet is still under waranty, you shouldn't have to pay. Even if you do, I'm sure you can work out a bargain with the music store.
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Author: Kim L
Date: 2001-03-23 21:00
My clarinet teacher at my university does not think clarinets should get pinned because it changes the tone quality. Also, she had a crack on her clarinet filled, and it cracked again. When my clarinet cracked, the technician where I bought my clarinet said that he didn't want to trade upper joints because it would change the tone quality of the instrument. IMHO you are better off getting a new instrument as I did. After the second break in day, I am so proud of my tone quality, which is far superior from my last clarinet.
Good luck and don't worry, be happy!
Kim L.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-03-23 23:51
Given a blind test, I would dare say no one could tell the tonal difference between a clarinet that has been pinned and one that hasn't.
John
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-03-24 01:36
I agree with John. Pinning it does not really change the tone to a any noticable degree. It is far more likely for stresses in the wood having been released to change the tone. From what I know, this is why cracks due to abuse, such as extreme temps, will change the tone less than, if at all, compared to a crack from stress in the wood. And from the sounds of it, the crack started out as perhaps a minor stress, (not sure), and later developed into a big crack because of "abuse". Not to say that you abused your horn Ashley, just that the crack likely progressed due to temperature and humidity changes. Playing long hours in a cold orchestra pit is a very good way to set that off. It's rather hard on a horn as it is, let alone when there is a crack present. Playing on it will likely only make it worse. Anyway, my hope is, that the wood has already "spent" it's stress. On the other hand, there may still be stresses in the wood, causing the crack to continue. I guess I haven't seen the crack, nor have I seen how and when it progresses, so I couldn't really venture to guess which one it is. Still, as far a changing the sound quality, unless you have already noticed a change in tone quality in your instrument (that has not been caused by leaking air), pinning it will not adversely effect the sound now. Likely when people complain about pinning an instrument having changed the sound, it is because the wood has changed, and changes and stresses in the wood can effect resonance. This is one of the reasons instruments vary. Each blank of wood is different, with different stresses, different densities, all in different spots. If the density or major stresses are changed in an instrument, this will effect the sound and tone. I can think of a case where someone had an clarinet that cracked big time, just on it's own. They brought it in, and had it pinned. Because the major stresses in the wood of the instrument were now relieved, the instrument actually played better! On the other hand, it can go the other way, and sadly, people have given up on instruments because of that. Again, as I said, if the tone has not changed already, a little pin will not make a noticeable difference. It's the change in the wood that makes the difference, not a tiny bit of metal and epoxy. My recommendation is still that you bring it in, and have the repair tech look at. See if you can't have it pinned. If you are satisfied with it, keep it as is, and if not, go for the new joint. What else can you do, short of geting a new horn? Good luck. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-24 10:27
I agree with Kim.
If your crack is right through the body it is pretty bad. Does it go through a tone hole? If so it CAN continue causing leak problems forever, especially if you move around different climates. Pinning attempts to stabilize the width of the crack so that it does not open and close as the moisture content (gradient) alters. You will still be relying on some type of filler to seal the crack. Fillers in timber are notoriously unreliable, often developing leaks around them as the timber 'moves'. Mpingo timber used for clarinets is quite stable but it does still move.
I don't understand the general assumption made in this thread that a replacement joint will be inferior because it is 'unmatched'. I very much doubt that much matching occurs in the factory. Surely each joint is must made to specifications and they therefore 'match' eachother within the tolerances dictated by the design specs, manufacturing standards, and especially standard of adjustment or 'set-up', which is seldom ideal anyway.
What Nate says about tone improving after stresses are removed may have some validity. However pinining of clarinets may well involve leak sealing, and possible some adjustment at the same time. I suspect that these are the main factors contributing to a clarinet 'playing better' after pinning.
Also, pinning does INTRODUCE large localized stresses in the timber near the pin as the pin attempts to stop the timber 'moving' as mentioned above. And significant stresses are also introduced when the threaded pin is forcibly screwed into an unthreaded hole in an unyielding timber.
Other points to consider are the slightly or significantly compromised appearance (depending on how well the job is done) affecting value, and whether you negate any guarantee by getting the instrument pinned. There is some risk attached to the pinning operation. Where would you stand for replacement under guarantee if the pinning operation split a large splinter off the side of the clarinet?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-03-24 12:37
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> I don't understand the general assumption made in this thread
> that a replacement joint will be inferior because it is
> 'unmatched'. I very much doubt that much matching occurs in
> the factory. Surely each joint is must made to specifications
> and they therefore 'match' eachother within the tolerances
> dictated by the design specs, manufacturing standards, and
> especially standard of adjustment or 'set-up', which is seldom
> ideal anyway.
Once upon a time, high grade clarinets were "match drilled" or so I was told when very young. I.e. The upper and lower joints were bored as a set. I have no idea whether this is true today but it may be the basis for concern about parts being unmatched.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-03-24 15:37
I've checked many a bore on clarinets and have found that most of them do not have the actual bore "stated" in brouchre's. I just checked the bore of a LeBlanc LL that is supposed to have a bore of .584 (14.9mm). Well folks this bore is .581 (14.7 mm). It also matches .581 at the lower end of the barrel. I haven't checked to see if there is any bore "step" between the upper and lower joint on this particular clarinet. I'll start keeping a chart of actual bore sizes and differences (if any) on clarinets that come to my shop. I post my results after a few months. I'll also keep track of the ones that have a "step" difference between joints and those which do not. Maybe we can detect which, if any manufacture, does a better job of workmanship and tolerances within the instrument.
John
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-24 15:56
Author: jbutler wrote:
I've checked many a bore on clarinets and have found that most of them do not have the actual bore "stated" in brouchre's.
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Might this typically be due to shrinkage over time?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-24 15:56
Author: jbutler wrote:
I've checked many a bore on clarinets and have found that most of them do not have the actual bore "stated" in brouchre's.
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John: Might this typically be due to shrinkage over time?
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-03-25 02:56
Bill,
You are correct. Wood shrinks with age, the difference could be due to age on this particular clarinet. I was merely trying to state (I guess rather vaguely) that bore sizes do have to match from joint to joint. If the joint is replaced it is up to the tech to make sure that the bore matches between the upper and lower joint (without a "step" so to speak). I don't know the technical term for this. I'm sure there is one. I've replace a joint or two in my time and I always check them for bore size. If they don't match I have to enlarge the one that is smaller. (I guess that would make sense since I can't add wood to the larger!) I think this is important for proper tuning. In Ashley's case she might want to ask the tech to make sure the bore sizes correctly match, otherwise the clarinet may not perform up to it's potential.
John
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Author: Erin
Date: 2001-03-28 02:36
I know what you mean about bad luck... when my clarinet cracked a couple of years ago, I was in the middle of a regional band festival. Personally, I wouldn't replace the joint, since it's really unlikely that you'll get as good a match as the one you already have. I got mine pinned under warranty, and it hasn't changed the sound a bit.
If you decide to go the repair route, make sure you get someone reputable to do it. A friend of mine sent a clarinet with a hairline crack to be filled, and the guy filled it with wax. The crack got bigger and she had to send it somewhere else to be pinned.
Cracks aren't uncommon- about half of the clarinetists I know have had them, got them repaired, and had no ill effects.
Best of luck!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-28 12:03
Surely the reality would be that a certain or drill or reamer is used for the upper section and a different one (for the flare at the bottom) for the lower section. I treat this "matching" with a great deal of scepticism. Surely it is most likely marketing hype. After all if you are paying more for a so-called special model then they've got to come up with something to say is better. (LeBlanc is a case in point. The features of the different models read like minor cosmetics drawn from a hat, and many players have commented that they find a cheaper one plays better than a pricey one anyway.)
Matching? Nah! They're either all matched with eachother, or the quality control is bad, bad, and they are not matched. Any reasonable quality control would make them consistent enough to all match eachother - within the design tolerances.
By the way I'm sure I read somewhere - I think Selmer - that the barrel deliberately had a step to a narrower diameter for the sake of the polycylindricality, and it was a SUDDEN step, which seems to make little acoustic sense.
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