 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-05-21 16:21
A number of you know Buffet Crampon offers a special wood/carbon fiber blend material called Greenline. I'd like to know does the Greenline material's sound character differ from the traditional Grenadilla/Ebony wood sound? If so, how?
Josh
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2013-05-21 19:04
We use both (Prestige for concerts and Greenlines for parade) and the Greenlines have really consistent tuning. Their sound doesn't match a Prestige in terms of depth of tone and they aren't as flexible, however they do the job.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-21 19:26
I find the difference of sound much more subtle. Perhaps there are a bit more overtones with the wood allowing the sound to 'ring' just a bit more but this is really noticeable ONLY playing one right after the other. The vastly more consistent tuning of the Greenline (because the dimensions don't change as they do with wood that will shrink and expand.... more in some spots than others) makes it for me a better option. Of course if you have the time and ability to try out 20 or more wooden R13s you may be able to find one that is a clearly better horn than an average Greenline.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-21 19:27
I find the difference of sound much more subtle. Perhaps there are a bit more overtones with the wood allowing the sound to 'ring' just a bit more but this is really noticeable ONLY playing one right after the other. The vastly more consistent tuning of the Greenline (because the dimensions don't change as they do with wood that will shrink and expand.... more in some spots than others) makes it for me a better option. Of course if you have the time and ability to try out 20 or more wooden R13s you may be able to find one that is a clearly better horn than an average Greenline.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-05-21 19:54
You're probably going to get a slew of responses saying that either Greenline is equal to the wood instruments in x and y respects (and maybe inferior in z) or Greenline is duller, brighter, darker, xx-er than wood instruments. You have no way of evaluating the various responses, even if they happen to come from known reputable clarinetists. There are many variables, including definitional ones, environmental ones and the equipment that each player couples with the instruments they are using to form their judgments, among others.
The best way to answer your question is to go to an instrument outlet where they stock both and try them. If *you* hear a difference or if you don't, you'll have an answer that means more to you than anything anyone here tells you.
In theory, the material shouldn't matter. In practice, the two need to be worked differently with different tools, and that alone might lead to subtle differences in the way the instrument's design is executed at the factory. But those might turn out to be instrument-to-instrument differences and not a consistent difference inherent in the wood and Greenline materials.
If you're 15, as your tag line says, a Greenline instrument might make more practical sense for you in terms of its durability, imperviousness to humidity and cracking and its relatively more stable dimensions when used under sub-ideal conditions (cold, hot, humid, etc.). If you live in Hong Kong, as your message header indicates, my impression of your climate is that it's sub-tropical, with lots of humidity because it's surrounded by water.
Hong Kong has a major symphony. Maybe one of those clarinetists can give you some advice and tell you about instrument sources.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-05-21 20:22
As somebody that works for a maker of handcrafted clarinets: JL-Clarinettes/France- and tries out many, I disagree that material doesn't matter much. Every type of wood -we use mopani, amourette, ebony, boxwood, violet wood- has its own characteristics. Density is not the only element. A clarinet made of Mopani and another one made of ebony have practically an identical weight but sound very diffferent. They don't vibrate they same way and haven't the same overtones. There are of course practical considerations too. Boxwood has a nice sound, but warps. Violet wood has, as far as I'm concerned, the best acoustical features, but often cracks, so that rules that out.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-05-21 20:40
Karl has hit the nail on the head, again. You really need to see if you can try out various models and materials. Composites have their own unique characteristics, as does hard rubber. I have a composite and for me here in Montana where the air is extremely dry, it was my best choice. I did change out the barrel for a Backun Cocobola one and a Grenadilla bell. There is a subtle difference in the timbre. I've tried several bells and barrels to come up with the sound I like. Remember too, that you will grow both physically and musically. What you can do today with your instrument will change. What you like "today" will change with time.
Tristan
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-21 21:33
I've heard that Greenline clarinets have their own special cracking problems, so in some ways they are apparently more fragile than wood and not more durable. I'm convinced that the future of clarinets DOES belong to some kind of futuristic durable, stable composite material, and maybe in combination with a grenadilla barrel for overtones. One day they will hit a beautiful, combination of reliability and tonal quality with composites. I look forward to that day and I have to, because the Greenline is not quite yet that horn. In the meantime I wouldn't mind having a Greenline to play. I understand they also have some qualities that even the best R13 can't match. Probably the Greenline is a better choice than the Lyrique hard rubber clarinet because the Greenline has a higher standard of manufacture and key work. Also, I'm a bit of a liberal politically and the manufacturer of the Lyrique is almost off the scale in the other direction. That said, I might still buy one of his instruments one day. Music trumps politics any day, and most of us who supposedly hold strong political views really prefer music anyway. Politics is an idea and sometimes nothing more than a posture, but music is a real science and an actual nutrient for the soul. On this board anyway, music unites us more than politics could ever separate us.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-05-21 21:45
Garth Libre wrote:
> I've heard that Greenline clarinets have their own special
> cracking problems, so in some ways they are apparently more
> fragile than wood and not more durable.
I've never heard this. I'm curious if anyone can knowledgeably corroborate what Garth has written. Garth, do you know who you heard this from?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-21 23:26
I believe what Garth Libre refers to is the fact that Greenline material is pretty much a fancy 'press board.' That makes it brittle and less able to withstand some extremes of torque and shock. For instance at the Combined Forces School of Music, there were a plethora of Greenlines that had the bottom tenon snapped off when stuck bells were approached with more force than nuance. Also, if the clarinet is allowed to topple over onto a rather hard floor (such a concrete with only a thin carpet or rubber flooring) chances are pretty good that the tenon at the bottom of the top joint will snap off.
Yes, NOTHING (alas) is perfect.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-05-21 23:28
Greenline being a composite material has no inherent tensile strength compared to natural grenadilla which has this strength in the form of the grain structure (which all timber exhibits), so the weakest point of the instument is the middle tenon which will snap off under stress.
In the past I've transplanted some top joints on R13 Greenlines for the Royal Marines Band in Portsmouth as the middle tenons were broken off either through accident (from falling over) or simply through the movement when standing easy during parade use (which is where they mainly use their R13 Greenlines) when the clarinet is held by the top joint down to the right side (don't ask why it's held like this!) in a rather jerky motion which puts a lot of stress on the middle tenon - not helped by having a middle socket or bell socket lyre loaded up with march cards.
Over on the oboe board, one of the members had a Greenline oboe which shed its middle tenon without any warning. I wonder why they don't offer a metal sleeved tenon (sleeved on the inside) or an aluminium tenon in the middle seeing this is well known as the weakest part of the instrument. Apparently (going on what someone told me) they fit wooden middle tenons to instruments destined for the Middle East and Asia, but not Europe and the US which are where they'd benefit with a more durable middle tenon what with our cold weather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-22 00:05
If you ask me, a hard rubber instrument built to the highest standards and best keywork may be the current best solution. Maybe the Greenline formula was designed largely to separate it from the rubber clarinets that usually sell for much less. Politics aside, the Lyrique type instument may now be the better choice.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-05-22 02:20
Garth Libre wrote:
> Maybe the Greenline formula was designed largely to separate it
> from the rubber clarinets that usually sell for much less.
I always suspected two reasons why Greenline was developed: (a) it allows use of all the scrap and other unusable grenadilla as the wood becomes scarcer; (b) being able to say there is real wood contained in the material would make people think it should still have the properties of wood.
I have heard from repair techs that the Greenline material can be more prone to chipping and other signs of brittleness when it's being tooled and that different tools and techniques need to be used at the factory to cut it cleanly. I just haven't heard about any tendency to crack, as wood clarinets sometimes do. Sheared-off tenons are the result of misuse, however innocent, not of natural processes. I don't think cracking is generally a problem with Greenlines.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-05-22 03:23
Buffet had problems with center tenons cracking on the early Greenlines. I've read that this has been fixed. Buffet's warranty service will replace a joint that cracks within, I think, one year.
The only certain difference between Greenline and wood Buffets is that the Greenlines are noticeably heavier.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-05-22 10:22
Perhaps Buffet could lay-up carbon fiber material in the tenon sections the way they currently make bicycles, boats and race car hoods. Bicycle manufacturing has recently gone to using carbon fiber layups in vacuum injection frame molding with great results. They make very light seat posts and handlebars that take astounding amounts of abuse before breaking and then sometimes causing sudden unexpected crashes that result in the rider being stabbed in the buttocks by decidedly sharp, jagged shards. What is the problem with hard rubber?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-22 10:43
Hard rubber is also 'brittle.' And much like your mouthpieces, it will change color (and become more malleable) over time (can you imagine your entire clarinet looking like one of your old mouthpieces?).
Honestly, all things being equal, the Greenline material has the most promise for the future. I certainly like what I heard above about the Middle Eastern clarinets' (WHY THERE?????) reinforced tenons. And yes, if this where done with carbon fiber or titanium (if possible) it might be ideal .
.........Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-05-22 12:14
There was a problem early in the production of Greenline clarinets that led to the the tenons sometimes breaking off. This was remedied a long time ago.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-05-22 13:34
Are you sure? I've seen very recent ones with broken middle tenons.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-05-22 16:10
According to your words Karl, "If you're 15, as your tag line says, a Greenline instrument might make more practical sense for you in terms of its durability, imperviousness to humidity and cracking and its relatively more stable dimensions when used under sub-ideal conditions (cold, hot, humid, etc.). If you live in Hong Kong, as your message header indicates, my impression of your climate is that it's sub-tropical, with lots of humidity because it's surrounded by water.
"Hong Kong has a major symphony. Maybe one of those clarinetists can give you some advice and tell you about instrument sources."
In fact my teacher is the veteran bass clarinettist of HK Philharmonic, Michael Campbell. I also know the 2 other clarinettists. Michael has never played the Greenlines before, he plays the wooden R13 for almost his whole career.
And due to sub-tropical humidity(like here in HK), the tenons on my Buffet E13 has swollen as a result. I was to record a Klezmer song on video today, but the swollen tenons has ruined my plans, as it is too hard to fit them together. In the music shop they offer services such as peeling of the swollen diameter of the tenons, but season after season it goes on and on. meanwhile my resin bass does not have such problems.
Stephen Fox actually offers Delrin(a strong polymer) as an alternative. However he admits it has more difficult working properties than wood. As to garth
To digress a bit, I guess these might be some of the reasons that aluminium clarinets exist. Maybe Foag metal clarinets are a considerable choice.
Well, back to the topic. Do Greenline tenons expand or swell due to humidity? I need an instrument that can be easily set up without being hindered much by swelling or breaking problems.
Josh
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2013-05-22 16:19
The Greenline can still be quite a tight fit, as was a brand new Greenline that a student at last years Phila. festival had.
Why can't Buffet get the fit right??????? I see that over, and over with students new Buffets. Tenon fittings are absurdly tight, even in the Winter. Easy repair, but still....... Get it right the first time!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-05-22 16:32
Fitting Greenline tenons is no easy feat compared to their blackwood counterparts as the material is very hard.
But at least it's better to have tight fitting tenons than wobbly ones as tight fitting ones are much easier to sort out.
What I wish Buffet will stop doing is using that wavy tenon cork slot! Just cut a much shallower flat slot which will be much better. Grooved tenon slots aren't needed anymore with the adhesives we use nowadays.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-05-22 16:34
I also recall I tested something before, but I don't remember if it's Greenline or not. And I can't confirm it because there are no Greenlines available for testing at present. What I rather tested is rather resistant. See if that matches?
Josh
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-05-22 17:11
The HK Symphony players may not have experience with Greenlines, but your teacher or any of the others can certainly point you toward instrument stores where you could try the Greenlines side by side with the wood R13s (or other brands), if stores in Hong Kong stock both types, to decide for yourself about sound differences.
E13 is made of grenadilla, I think? Your swollen tenons are more extreme than I would have imagined, but they are basically the kind of problem that made me suggest that Greenline might make more sense in your situation even if you hear a subtle difference in the instruments' natural tone qualities.
I may be really behind the times, but is John Koljonen still playing in the orchestra or in the Hong Kong area? I haven't heard anything about him in a long time.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-05-22 21:54
At one clarinet conference, I heard in one afternoon several wood clarinet players and one Greenline player. After noting that the Greenline sounded different from the wooden instruments to me, I concluded that I would prefer to buy wooden instruments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-23 02:30
Just one last follow up.
The (wooden) Selmer Privilege has a metal covering over the inner and outer ends of the tenons AND a metal sleeve on the inside of the bottom joint socket ....... problems solved (for $6,000).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-05-23 07:01
Karl:
I'm not sure, Koljonen doesn't seem to be around. The other 2 I know are John Schertle and Andrew Simon. As for my teacher Michael Campbell, he will be retiring in July, and there's still no one to take his place. And Tom Lee, HK's major music retailer, does not have any Greenlines at this moment.
And Chris, your points on the tenons concerns me, as tighter tenons means more force and strength needed to get them in and out. If it is a Greenline tenon its days are probably numbered in that sense. I wish they had made a stainless steel tenon(epoxied into the upper joint) with a layer of solid rubber, then things can last longer.
So, are Greenline tenons a better deal for sub-tropical regions?
Josh
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-05-23 07:06
Karl:
I'm not sure, Koljonen doesn't seem to be around. The other 2 I know are John Schertle and Andrew Simon. As for my teacher Michael Campbell, he will be retiring in July, and there's still no one to take his place. And Tom Lee, HK's major music retailer, does not have any Greenlines at this moment.
And Chris, your points on the tenons concerns me, as tighter tenons means more force and strength needed to get them in and out. If it is a Greenline tenon its days are probably numbered in that sense. I wish they had made a stainless steel tenon(epoxied into the upper joint) with a layer of solid rubber, then things can last longer.
So, are Greenline tenons a better deal for sub-tropical regions?
Josh
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Author: jez
Date: 2013-05-23 09:06
I've been using a greenline Festival sometimes recently and did think there was some difference in sound, but when I put a wooden barrel on, noticed it much less.
jez
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-05-23 16:08
My Laubin oboe has a metal receiver for the middle joint. Wouldn't this be possible on clarinet? The upper joint tenon that fits into it has a metal collar. It seems like a stable fit.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-05-23 17:19
Some older clarinets had metal sleeved tenons. One problem with this is it can cause the lower joint to crack either to the C tonehole or down the back of the lower joint.
Tenons should be made to be a good fit in their respective sockets without the tenon cork fitted (that's only there to act as a seal and also to keep the joint together), but they should neither bind nor rock.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-06-08 07:49
Lohff and Pfeiffer do offer metal tenons and sockets as well in their catalogue. Mybe that's the way to go, isn't it?
Wow At first we are talking about sound, and now we are talking about tenons. I guess it's time to change the title!
Josh
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-06-08 09:39
A friend lives in Far North Queensland, Australia, which has a climate probably much like Hong Kong. He had problems with swollen tenons on his Selmers, and his solution was to have the wood tenons replaced with Delrin. The work was done by a tech in Sydney, no idea who. It was a bit expensive, but he thinks it was worth it as he is still able to play his favourite pair of clarinets. The tech was concerned that the intonation of the instruments might change, so he did the A clarinet first as a trial piece. It worked fine, so now he's had his Bb and E done.
Tony F.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-08 11:27
Guy Chadash makes Delrin inserts. If the upper joint bore has been ruined by someone who only thinks he knows what he's doing, Guy can drill out the wood and make a Delrin insert for the entire upper joint, which has the correct shape and never warps.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 13:31
Timber changes dimension with its moisture content.
Delrin changes more form temperature.
Metals does not change significantly at all.
So surely, grafting one material to another just creates different problems - stresses between the two materials. And the most likely manifestation of this is either a graft/lining/insert becomes loose, or the other material, be it timber or "greenline", splits or fractures.
What Chris reports seems to back this up.
Almost every new timber clarinet that comes my way here in Auckland, NZ (surrounded by sea, but with a mild climate) soon gets tight tenons (unless stabilised with metal). I deal with it, and because I never want to OVER-deal with it, producing wobbly joints, I often have to deal with it again later, and occasionally a third time. But eventually the joints are adjusted to the climate, with no further trouble. This applies to Selmer, Buffet and Yamaha.
I would far prefer this situation than to have them come from the factory with LOOSE joints.
BTW, Doesn't Greenline claim somewhere to be 5% carbon fibre? And if so, that would ideally be all for reinforcing at the tenons. Is that or is it not the case? If not, then Buffet being engineeringly silly re several other issues, I would hardly be surprised if that carbon fibre was in a form and location that had zero benefit to anything. Perhaps just for marketing?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-06-08 14:21
As far as I can tell, the Greenline material is the same throughout the horn. I would think that carbon fiber added to the mixture WOULD help to a degree (so not ALL marketing), but a solution to the issue would be to have some internal metal sleeves for the tenons (like rebar for clarinets). Depending on how the "billets" (?) are created, this may not be possible.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 15:22
Metal sleeves create the issue of differential expansion which potentially causes problems.
Ideally the carbon fibre should surely be long strands just in the problem tenon areas.
The other area that may be prone to chipping is tone hole chimneys. If long fibres are used throughout, in a composite "mix", and cast to approximate clarinet shape, wouldn't these interfere with the composite getting into the thin chimney areas of the mould?
I suspect that the fibres are very short, in which case I rather doubt that they do any good anywhere. But it sounds good for marketing. Just as the grenadilla dust as a filler sounds good for marketing, even though it has no remaining grain structure or surface texture resembling timber that could contribute to some perceived "timber sound".
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-08 20:03
Differential expansion requires differential calculus. I stopped with integral calculus, so the math is beyond me. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2013-06-08 20:04)
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Author: donald
Date: 2013-06-08 22:56
Per usual Gordon makes some very good, and well thought out points. At the risk of sounding antagonistic (which is not my intention) I would like to point that despite....
"Metal sleeves create the issue of differential expansion which potentially causes problems."
.... metal sleeves HAVE been used at the middle joint of any number of clarinets (and oboes it would seem) without causing problems.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-09 06:14
Thanks Donald 
But if you consult a collector/restorer of old woodwind instruments, he will tell you that he has had to mend countless splits caused by metal tenon sockets. Admittedly, some of these are from the swelling associated with corroding metal.
I guess most clarinets and oboes of sufficient quality to have metal sockets, are generally looked after pretty well by the owner though.
So there is truth in"metal sleeves HAVE been used at the middle joint of any number of clarinets (and oboes it would seem) without causing problems."
But my wooden piccolo has a loose metal-sleeve tenon. That is from timber shrinkage. I think, from posts by technicians on the topic, that this is reasonably common.
Perhaps that is because metal-sleeve tenons are common on piccolos (but not on clarinets)
Cheers
Gordon
Post Edited (2013-06-09 06:22)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-09 13:11
Classical wood flutes (and piccolos) had to tune to many pitches. They universally had a thin metal sleeve running the full length of the headjoint to permit tuning without changing the bore and also to prevent wood rot. The sleeve had a wood tube around it, for appearance's sake. Approximately 100% of these sleeves crack due to wood shrinkage. It doesn't affect the playing qualities, and restorers universally fill the cracks and stain the filler.
Almost all clarinets with an articulated C#/G# have a metal-lined socket at the top of the lower joint. The tenon and socket are longer than on the standard design, so any side-force creates a longer lever that is more likely to break the wood. Also, the chimney must go through both the upper joint tenon and the lower joint shell, creating thin areas of wood that inevitably crack.
Selmer clarinets have, or used to have, a metal cap at the top of the upper joint tenon. Selmer touted it as a way to keep water out of the end-grain. I've never noticed that it made any difference in playing qualities.
Ken Shaw
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