 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2013-04-29 22:40
I was able to observe a community orchestra's two clarinets play both a Concerto and a symphony but the catch is, they switched parts on the pieces. The principal played 2nd on the concerto and the other chair played 1st. One of the players blows real hard but is not loud.(a little red in the face at times), The other player is loud. During the Concerto all I really heard was first part. When the loud player got on second part for the symphony, the other player matched volume because the higher notes tend to be louder by nature. The 2nd player was easy to hear too because he is generally loud and pushed through the staff notes. The end result was balance. I have watched many a symphony and don't often hear the second part clearly. I am wondering if this sound has been recognized and lent to a push from the 2nd with a lighter 1st, since they come out naturally louder in the clarion and altissimo registers. They were both exceptional players, and I enjoyed the blend with the strong second and the quieter-ish first.
Post Edited (2013-04-29 22:43)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-29 23:22
Ahhhhhh, so much to pick apart here. Were to begin?
Balance is a musical consideration that should (in a perfect world) be dictated by the maestro. If the balance is one way in one piece and demonstrably different in the next, he should be the first person (in rehearsal that is) making a decision to use one form over another.......... unless the dictates of the orchestration make a case for it to be otherwise (doubtful).
And I would further say that the musical sensitivities of the players (one being more of a hotdog aside) should prevent them from just going off on a jag simply based on their individual strengths.
I for one would say of the above scenario that a second (or rather subordinate) ANYTHING should always, ALWAYS be softer than the melody. Listen to Sergiu Celibidache rehearse the Mozart Requiem (available on YOUTUBE) for some good examples of fine listening and readjustment of the orchestral volumes.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-04-29 23:48
Quote:
Balance is a musical consideration that should (in a perfect world) be dictated by the maestro. If the balance is one way in one piece and demonstrably different in the next, he should be the first person (in rehearsal that is) making a decision to use one form over another..........
Really?
I would think that in a perfect world, the players are competent musicians and can make such decisions without the direction of the conductor (important word is competent).
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-30 02:58
When playing "principal", I've often appreciated a "subordinate" clarinetist cognizant that harmonization in 3rds, 6ths, and octaves actually require a bit more support, dare I say volume, on their part to create the proper balance....
....or they don't leave me hanging, particularly in octaves, when something like Dvorak's Carnival Overture finds its way onto the program. (Simply the first example that came to mind; Brahms and Schumann etc.... offer additional fodder)
-Jason
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-30 03:22
I would only add that if you have more than one "competent musician" in the room, you WILL have more than one opinion. With that in mind, a UNIFIED VISION of the piece at hand is of utmost aesthetic importance (at least to some of us that is). So you need to rely on ONE idea (or have one person settle the 'disputes') to convey to an audience rather than 100 differing opinions all at once. Of course I prefer highly polished performances such as those we used to get from Karajan, Parette, Celibidache, and Szell.
You may not have liked any of the above, but you'd have to admit that your reaction was based on a firm idea of an interpretation, more like having looked at a painting rather than, dare I say, a "hoe down."
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-04-30 05:02
Nice name dropping, Paul.
Appeals to authority aside, I have played in orchestras conducted by musicians of similar repute, and in general, they expect the clarinet section to balance amongst themselves.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-04-30 07:55
Once again Paul shouts the loudest, and once again has nothing to say.
In my humble experience wind sections like and prefer to balance themselves and usually competent conductors will allow that. Bad conductors are the ones that try and control everything and everyone.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-30 13:28
I stand corrected.
The best conductors are those that don't even need to go to rehearsal, just have their name on the program.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-04-30 15:28
Quote:
I stand corrected.
The best conductors are those that don't even need to go to rehearsal, just have their name on the program.
Clearly, if a conductor is not dictating the balance of every player and every section, they are doing absolutely nothing at all. Makes perfect sense...
Kidding aside, what do you think of the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, Paul?
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2013-04-30 17:31
Sometimes the conductor should quiet down parts inside a section or bring them up. I know in the trio of Beethoven's Eroica, that the 3rd horn needs to be louder than the other two. This is so the low notes can be heard because they travel in the air different than the high frequencies. And the melodic nature of blends with the other two horns and is in essence a bi-melody where all is important. I discovered this from different recordings and interpretations and found that the conductor can tweak some individual dynamics to good effect. I'm sure there are imbalances that are not noticed in clarinet sections so the conductor can't be counted on to notice everything. That is what was good about the section I saw with the strong 2nd and the lighter but higher first. They were both noticed and the top wasn't covering other one to the point of not being able to hear it. My favorite principals are the ones that aren't afraid to play loud when its their moment.
GM
Post Edited (2013-04-30 17:33)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-04-30 19:30
There's another reason why the conductor's got to tell the musicians whether to play louder or softer: the hall. The conductor's out front, with a bit of distance between the podium and the musicians, and in a better physical position to hear how the balance sounds than the musicians are
I think that's especially true for clarinet players, usually buried in the middle of the orchestra. In high school, I had the first trombone right over my shoulder. Believe me, I was grateful for the information (and so was the second clarinetist) when the conductor told us to bring it up or step it down. That was an amateur orchestra of teenagers, but I can't imagine why professionals would rather simply blaze away instead of welcoming an informed opinion from out front. Of course that's assuming the conductor's not just someone who just stands there and waves a stick....
When the Kennedy Center first opened in Washington, D.C., in the mid-1970s, the main concert hall had serious accoustical problems. A conductor who trusted the musicans (notoriously unable to hear themselves on that stage) would risk a seriously messed-up performance. In advanced amateur performances, too, I've seen conductors in rehearsal yell out questions about balance to an assistant stationed in the back of the hall: "How's it sound back there?" Then the assistant will wander around through the balconies and so forth.
It seems wrongheaded to me for musicians to object to being told they're too loud or too soft unless there's a good, specific reason to question the conductor's abilities.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-01 04:05
Buster: Naturally the point of this thread is to get everyone agitated with each other like the rest of the interweb.
Brycon: I just mentioned Orpheus recently (obviously somewhere else). They are phenomenal. I think this is in part because everyone relies on the rhythm "in the air" more rather than leaning on visual queues all the time. HOWEVER, there MUST be pretty intense rehearsals with the concert master (I presume......or some one individual who makes the overarching decisions of interpretation) BEFORE the concerts and recordings.
Balance and tempi are not happenstance. A decision has to be made and it must be executed with everyone in agreement or you have noise.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: eaglgenes101
Date: 2013-05-02 05:28
My conductor gave my band 2 balance rules (probably to compensate for what high school students would otherwise do):
melody > counter-melody > harmony, and
bass > tenor > alto > soprano.
I'm not sure how I'd apply them in this situation.
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Author: alto gether
Date: 2013-05-02 18:15
Told (I think) of Benjamin Britten:
"Stop! The bass trombone is playing too loudly."
"No! The bass trombone is still too loud!"
"Sir, the bass trombone isn't here yet."
"Very well. When he arrives, tell him he is playing too loudly."
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2013-05-07 22:07
In our section we have a basic "formula" for dynamics. If we have a solo in thirds we try to blend as equal as possible with the same sound and dynamic. In unison the 2nd player plays about one dynamic softer than the principal but slightly "broader" in sound. In octaves, like in Sibelius symphonies the 2nd player play louder like as being a foundation for the timbre. In alberti figures like in Mozart 39 3rd movement or Beethoven 4 4th movement the 2nd player is usually asked to play quite loud, often louder than the melody. These are very "general formulas" and are only used until something else works better musically!
Alphie
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