 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: klc92
Date: 2010-01-13 03:32
I have been having a problem with the inside of my bottom lip when I play my clarinet. It seems my teeth dig into the lip, so that it creates a blister... in the form of a hole. It causes me a lot of pain when I play, and also causes me to leak air a lot, from both sides of my mouth.
I have experimented with my embochure and rearranging the mouthpiece in my mouth, but that doesn't seem to help. I used EZO frequently until about a month ago, when the blister started forming and the wax didn't help the pain anymore. I have been using numbing gels/ointments, but even that only lasts so long. I have been to a dentist about it, but they did not know what to say...
Can someone (who has perhaps had this same problem) tell me how to rid my lip of this blister? The only time it goes away is when I don't practice. But I can't just stop playing the clarinet! Would someone please help me???
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BrianChau
Date: 2010-01-13 05:16
Once, I tried folding a piece of Saran-wrap into the size of 2 pennies, and sticking it between my bottom lip and bottom teeth... It did work, but I'm not sure if it's the best idea.
Brian Chau
University of British Columbia Concert Winds
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-01-13 06:23
Well there is probably only two suggestions.
One, don`t keep desensitising your lip and keep on playing. You are only damaging it more.
Two, get your teeth away from under your lip. Put both teeth and lip in contact with the reed and don`t bite so hard.
The good news is that when rested lips heal fast.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-13 10:18
Some people use a plastic cover for their teeth constructed by a dentist (similar in concept to a "bite guard"). I use a patch of leather cut to size. I acquire my leather from the patch found on many jeans pants.
Biting IS NOT good. I assume that you do not force anything but still have this problem so, you can also try angling your clarinet as close to your body as possible. This will give you a better fulcrum with the jaw versus the mouthpiece. That is, the upper teeth should be at a point close to the tip while the bottom lip/teeth should be much further down the reed. You never want this system configured such that the top and bottom teeth are opposite one another on the mouthpiece (like a binder clip over a stack of papers).
....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Joarkh
Date: 2010-01-13 11:46
I also suffer from this problem - I have a corner on one of my lower front teeth that is so sharp that it really doesn't matter whether I bite or not. I went to see the dentist, and they only polished the corner a little. It helped for a few weeks, but then it happened again. I also use floral tape in between for protection, but often I find that it is uncomfortable to play with the thickness necessary in order to neutralize the sharpness of the tooth.
Someone told me I should try Parafilm (kind of stretchy plastic film used in labs), has anyone tried it?
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2010-01-13 11:55
Be sure your reeds are not too hard and you are not biting. You might try a little lighter and see what happens. Be sure to take frequent breaks as well.
Good Luck
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tim P
Date: 2010-01-13 11:58
when this happens to me, i find it is because i am biting TOO hard. to remedy this i cover both top and bottom teeth with my lips (some people do this all the time). it takes some more concentration to get a good sound and since the upper is lip is more sensitive it forces me to let up a little on the mouthpiece.
"saving the world, one beer at a time"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-13 12:16
It isn't clear to me if you were using the EZO pad before the blister formed and it happened anyway, or you tried to protect the lip with the EZO pad once the blister formed. My lower front teeth are a little jagged (maybe not as much as Joarkh's) and I sometimes use EZO pads, especially when I expect to be playing a long time at once (e.g. a dress rehearsal and a performance a dinner break apart). I've never had an injury to my lower lip while using the pad.
I'd say your basic problem almost has to be that you're biting too hard. Or (the air leak suggests this) possibly stretching your lower lip too tightly over your teeth. To stop this from being a chronic problem you're going to have to figure out (on your own or with a teacher's help) why your teeth are pressing so hard into your lip and rearrange your embouchure approach (rather than the mouthpiece). Reed choice certainly comes into the picture - my own experience is that pinching can be encouraged as much by reeds that are too soft as reeds that are too hard.
Meanwhile, the only way you'll probably get the current injury to heal is to stop playing for a few days. Numbing the area is certainly not the answer - you're only killing the pain (as you say, temporarily) while its cause is probably getting more acute.
There was some recent discussion on the Klarinet mailing list about Parafilm. Here's one of the posts:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/01/000047.txt
although if you do a search on the Klarinet archives you'll see several others.
Good luck.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DougR
Date: 2010-01-13 12:49
Yeah, "biting too hard."
I used to use cigarette paper, couldn't play comfortably without it. Started studying with a guy who had me try double-lip. (this is NOT a "you should switch to double lip" comment, by the way.)
My sound was immediately better, and with double-lip, you CAN't bite. This showed me that biting isn't necessary to produce a good sound. Since then, I'm playing single-lip but don't need the cigarette paper, or any other lip cushion. (this is true on bass as well)
Here's what works for me.
Start practice session with some double-lip. Start your exhales at 3" below the belly button. Good strong air stream (which is what it takes to make double-lip sound good, and you need that exact same airstream for single-lip.) Tongue position high in the back and forward in front, as if you're saying "kheeeeee". (It's the internal shape of the oral cavity that makes high notes pop, rather than pressure from biting.) Then transition to single-lip, keeping all those other elements the same. It's helpful to think of the lower lip like a soft pat of butter (i.e., put no more pressure on it than you would on a soft pat of butter).
I follow this rigamarole whether practicing soprano or bass; key are airstream, breathing, and the awareness that biting isn't necessary to make the notes speak.
(A lot of this is based on Joe Allard's teachings: the bits about tongue position, air, soft pat of butter, manipulating the oral cavity to get high notes out rather than biting harder/softer--if I'm quoting correctly, of course!)
I should add that it took a certain amount of cognitive discomfort before I was able to let go of biting. However, to my ears, I sound much better now, and am able take the energy I used to put into biting, and instead put it into the airstream.
Hope this is helpful.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2010-01-13 13:07
How long have you been playing? If you just started you need to give your lip some time to build up the callous instead of protecting it.
If you have been playing for quite some time, either your biting too hard or your teeth are sharp and can be filed.
If I play for an extended period of time and my lip starts to get sore I just fold up some paper into the right thickness and length for me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-13 19:44
Is the problem the entire length of your teeth or just a small spot, in which case it might be a protruding tooth? I have a student with that problem and his dentist made him a cover for his lower teeth. I always use Floral tape myself, I double it over to make four layers and form it to my lower teeth. You could ask your dentist to "file" down the sharpness of your teeth just a bit, they can't do too much though. Practicing double lip, as suggested, is a good way to help you prevent biting to much. You may be simply pressing your bottom jaw into the reed to much. If you can't solve the problem by changing your playing habits then you need to use a teeth guard as suggested. It could take time to get used to it but it works, many professionals as myself use one. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-01-13 22:56
If you put your mouth on the mouthpiece and are ready to play, there shouldn't be an uncomfortable amount of pressure on the mouthpiece. When you start to play there shouldn't be an increase of pressure on the mouthpiece (not a significant amount of pressure anyway).
I use eezo denture pads because I play for over several hours a day and it's just more comfortable, but I stay very concious of how much pressure is being used by the jaw\lower lip.
My recommendation (as is my teacher's) is to take the mouthpiece and barrel off and play. The note (as is commonly taught) should be an F# concert pitch. I would suggest (as my teacher of the montreal symphony suggests) is that the jaw pressure should be low enough that it should easily sound an F. If the tongue is in an "Eeeee" position and the jaw is relaxed, this should be no problem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2010-01-14 15:38
i've had the same problem, I don't anymore. I think the most important thing is that your chin has to really pull down to resist the biting pressure. You DO need that biting pressure, but if you chin is not pulled down, then you have the biting pressure and the upward chin pressure both going against your lips. I think it as a piece of string, to make it firm and stable, you need forces in the opposite directions on both ends. So it's like the biting force and chin-pulling-down force are opposing each other and that gives you a good embouchure.
Thus I think when people say someone "bites" too much, it's not necessarily that, but it's perhaps the chin is not pulling down so both the biting and the chin are acting "up".
If I were you, I would try to really pull down my chin (while maintaining your jaw position) and make sure it stays there. If you find that's hard, then change to softer reed. I found that when I focus on doing it, I had to use 1/2 softer reed than before.
Also, what Ed P suggested above is very helpful - the floral tape. It's great! I have very sharp and small bottom teeth so they really got into the lip. But the floral tape strategy totally solved that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-14 16:32
TianL wrote:
> Thus I think when people say someone "bites" too much, it's not
> necessarily that, but it's perhaps the chin is not pulling down
> so both the biting and the chin are acting "up".
>
> If I were you, I would try to really pull down my chin (while
> maintaining your jaw position) and make sure it stays there.
I'm sorry, Tian. I really don't understand this. I suspect what you mean isn't exactly what you've written, but maybe you can make it clearer. If someone is "biting," whether on a mouthpiece or on food or my cat on my finger when I stroke the wrong place, he is closing his jaw against whatever it is he is biting on. It doesn't seem possible in my understanding of the words to pull my chin *down* without *separating* my upper and lower jaw, which is the opposite of "biting."
"Biting," at least as I understand the word, means pressing with the jaws upward against the reed and (since the two parts of the jaw don't generally work independently) downward against the top of the mouthpiece. Another word often used by clarinetists to describe this is "pinching." Using this meaning, biting pressure is never necessary (or shouldn't be) to get a reed to respond. There is, indeed, pressure needed, but it needn't come from the jaw at all. It can (and, in almost any description of embouchure musculature I've ever heard or read, should) come from the muscles in the lips themselves.
So, if your idea is that some pressure is needed, I'd agree with you. But I don't think setting up all that oppositional tension between the jaw and the chin (which, unless I've misunderstood, is part of and controlled by the lower jaw) is likely to solve a player's problems with sore bottom lips resulting from bottom teeth pressing into the lip.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2010-01-14 19:49
Karl,
You said "Biting, at least as I understand the word, means pressing with the jaws upward against the reed and (since the two parts of the jaw don't generally work independently) downward against the top of the mouthpiece. Another word often used by clarinetists to describe this is "pinching." Using this meaning, biting pressure is never necessary (or shouldn't be) to get a reed to respond."
First of all, I believe that the biting pressure (or.. since biting has such a negative connotation, let's call it embouchure pressure) comes from the chewing muscles that one eats with. One can bite down use the chewing muscle, and, at the same time, pull the jaw down with the chin muscles. They are two different muscles.
To put in a simpler words, one eats with the chewing muscles, not with the chin muscles.
And let's think about this.. to have a flat chin, your chin has to pull your lower jaw downward, then for your jaw to stay there and not move downward (and actually puts an upward pressure on the reed), there has to some muscle that's acting upward, right? Just think of a piece of string on the table, if you pull one end, it will move, unless you apply a force on the end.
I think that upward pressure comes from the chewing muscles.
To my understanding at least, there are two different cases of "biting" that cause issues. One is that one over-bites -- bites too hard. The second is that one's chin is not pulling down, in the second case the lip is between one's teeth and the reed and the chin is NOT pulling the lower jaw down, so basically one is just biting the lip directly.
Also, pinching to me is not the same as biting (which uses chewing muscles). so that's a different issue. I do think that pinching will cause problems. But I definitely think the embouchure pressure from chewing muscle is necessary.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: klc92
Date: 2010-01-14 21:39
Wow. I cannot thank you guys enough. The advice that Paul Aviles and TianL gave is genius. I simply pulled my "chin muscles" down (without moving my jaw) so that my teeth were more parallel to the reed, versus biting the reed.
It didn't occur to me that biting was my problem. I have been playing clarinet for 7 years and hadn't had such a terrible lip pain as this one. However, about 4 months ago, I switched from using a Gregory Smith 1* mouthpiece to using a Gigliotti P4. The Gigliotti does feel smaller on my embouchure and it didn't occur to me until now that changing my embouchure would be a factor to the mouthpiece switch.
Thanks to your advice, my lip doesn't hurt when I practice, my sound seems a whole lot better, and even the leaking is not so much a problem anymore. If I do get any more pain, I will definitely experiment with the double-lip approach or try any of the teeth covers that were suggested.
Thank you all so very much!
Kelsey
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: keechips
Date: 2013-04-25 05:35
i get the exact same thing. my music teacher says that if you get a piece of wax paper and hook a little bit of it over your teeth and let the rest sit in your lip, it stops the pain. if thats not on hand you can just try only putting a small amount of the mouthpiece in your mouth or biting a bit softer.
Hope this helps
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2013-04-25 16:21
I suggest you read Tom Ridenour's book "The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet," where you'll find a good explanation of (pain-free) embouchure mechanics, both single and double. You can purchase the book from Tom directly and from several other sources (on the Web).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-25 17:49
What I didn't mention in this context was that angling the clarinet downward (pulling in toward you) can influence comfort and proper embouchure as well. You really don't want your top teeth and bottom teeth opposed to one another only separated by the mouthpiece. It is much more desirable to have the top teeth closer to the tip of the mouthpiece while the lower teeth are situated much further along the reed (to be at the place close to, but not on, where reed and mouthpiece join as one).
.................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-25 17:49
What I didn't mention in this context was that angling the clarinet downward (pulling in toward you) can influence comfort and proper embouchure as well. You really don't want your top teeth and bottom teeth opposed to one another only separated by the mouthpiece. It is much more desirable to have the top teeth closer to the tip of the mouthpiece while the lower teeth are situated much further along the reed (to be at the place close to, but not on, where reed and mouthpiece join as one).
.................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-04-25 17:59
Let lip heal before playing. Discuss with your teacher. Then proceed as he directs.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-04-25 18:39
Paul wrote:
"You really don't want your top teeth and bottom teeth opposed to one another only separated by the mouthpiece."
Why???????
Also:
"It is much more desirable to have the top teeth closer to the tip of the mouthpiece while the lower teeth are situated much further along the reed..."
Sorry Paul but this is ridiculous. You are seriously suggesting that students adopt a real un-natural embouchure? This shows to me that you haven't really considered the students physiology. What would you do if a student couldn't do that? What would you do if the student had an overbite? What would you do if the student had an underbite?
What you say is extremely bad advice imho, but what do I know?!?!
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-26 02:37
Peter, I don't truly know what you know, nor do you truthfully know what I know:
But I would fight to the death with you to say that Paul's pre-prescription is a load of rubbish.
Wow, if I was ever forced to place the mouthpiece in That manner I would have ended up an accordion virtuoso... or Formula 1 Champion.
-Jason
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-04-26 14:51
My embouchure of choice was adopted after speaking with Tom Puwalski at two separate clarinetfests. A combination of his two exercises on how to form a good embouchure and I can play for hours with NO bottom lip pain, and my teeth are pressed up very lightly against my lip.
Step One: Form an "O" with your lips, and to paraphrase Tom, "Shove a ton of mouthpiece into your pie-hole". I mean, you're gonna feel like you're trying to SWALLOW the mouthpiece with so much in there. You may even feel the ligature touching your bottom lip you've got a bunch in there. Play a slightly accented, forte, open G. More than likely, you've got so much mouthpiece in there you'll squeak. Good!!! Now back the mouthpiece out SLIGHTLY. Repeat the slightly accented, forte, open G. Keep backing out after each one until it DOESN'T squeak. That point there will be near optimum for placing your bottom lip at the point where the reed touches the curve of the mouthpiece, allowing for maximum vibration of the reed and not pinching it off.
Step Two: Once you've found that point, put the mouthpiece in at the correct point. Form an "O" around the mouthpiece and suck in air as hard as you can THROUGH the clarinet! Imagine the clarinet is the hose to a vacuum and you're trying to suck in air and suck a ping pong ball through the bell or something. This will form a great "O" as you want to get the maximum amount of air, QUICKLY through the clarinet WITHOUT leaking around the mouthpiece. Right when you end it, FREEZE everything! The shape of your mouthpiece at this point is perfect for creating a seal around the mouthpiece, you will NOT be squeezing the reed cause it's counter-intuitive to bite down while trying to suck in a huge amount of air, and your bottom lip is in an ideal spot for maximum vibration of the reed. Boom! You've got a great and efficient embouchure!
To hear how it sounds, repeat step two (sucking in), and immediately play that Open G with a slight accent but be sure NOT to change that seal or squeeze the reed. Simply suck the breath in, and then breath it back out without changing your face!
This has helped me a lot and made it much easier to play. Another great point to the step one exercise, is that because you have the near ideal spot for your bottom lip, you'll find you need MINIMAL (if any) embouchure changes when changing through the registers and going into the altissimo. Sure, to get those higher altissimo notes you MAY want to sneak your bottom lip down the reed a BIT, but it won't have to be much and will be much easier to jump around through the registers and hit the note with confidence.
This experiment really takes all of 3 minutes to try, and it's DEFINITELY a great exercise to realize that you do NOT need to bite to get a good sound, and really, all your lips need to do is create a seal to block air from escaping and allowing it ONLY to go through the clarinet for more efficient, easier playing.
Alexi
PS - The real fun is the squeaking part ..... but eventually you WILL have to back out enough to get a resonant open G.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2013-04-26 14:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EBC
Date: 2013-04-26 19:52
I think most of us have noted that the "embouchure question" comes up with depressing frequency on this board. To spice things up a little, I have a question for those of you who enjoy so expounding on your theories of clarinet playing:
Have you ever seriously explored the option of a flexible embouchure? (i.e. in terms of pressure and position against the reed)
May the muckraking continue...
Eric
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-04-27 00:48
EBC wrote:
> I think most of us have noted that the "embouchure question"
> comes up with depressing frequency on this board. To spice
> things up a little, I have a question for those of you who
> enjoy so expounding on your theories of clarinet playing:
>
> Have you ever seriously explored the option of a flexible
> embouchure? (i.e. in terms of pressure and position against the
> reed)
>
> May the muckraking continue...
>
>
> Eric
Lol. Definitely! Pinching the reed for different sound quality, way loose for a slightly airy fuzzy sound, sure! If that's what you meant.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-27 06:44
Without a graphic, it may be hard to clarify what I mean. But the idea is that it is 'better,' to apply the idea of a fulcrum. There is NOTHING unnatural about players who keep the clarinet in close to the body...... Harold Wright executed a pretty good technique this way I think and the result to where the top verses bottom teeth lay in this configuration is also pretty obvious.
What I mean by opposition is that you then are just in a position where your teeth are merely a clamp, force come from directly above and directly below........period. Now where this is more correct (by tradition) is in Germany where the this stance is considered more the proper approach to day to day playing (but it is also part of MANY different aspects to playing the Oehler clarinets). It is also what you get in the "BELLS UP" direction from Mahler, but I doubt many of you would play that way all the time.
As for variability, I assume you are talking about for purposes of sound affects. In standard symphonic technique, in standard situations, you would be better off with a CONSISTENT platform so that pitch and timbre can also be predictable.
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-04-27 13:30
Quote:
Without a graphic, it may be hard to clarify what I mean. But the idea is that it is 'better,' to apply the idea of a fulcrum. There is NOTHING unnatural about players who keep the clarinet in close to the body...... Harold Wright executed a pretty good technique this way I think and the result to where the top verses bottom teeth lay in this configuration is also pretty obvious.
I was fortunate enough to take a few lessons from Mr. Ridenour who is a HUGE Harold Wright fan and has explained the fulcrum idea as well as the top teeth/bottom teeth. Certainly a way to play it. By pulling the clarinet close to the body, you ARE putting pressure on the reed, but you're not using your jaw muscles, rather you are levering the clarinet against your bottom lip to increase the pressure. This also allows for a very OPEN mouth and oral cavity. Mr. Ridenour told me to control the amount of pressure on the reed not by biting or loosening the embouchure, but by keeping the embouchure rock solid and manipulating the angle of the clarinet to my body. Pulling it closer makes it firmer, pushing it away makes it looser (if the embouchure is set in stone and doesn't move).
Very easy to experiment with. Without a clarinet, form an "O" embouchure. Stick the mouthpiece in it, and then pull the clarinet towards and away from the body. You'll feel the pressure increase and decrease while your embouchure doesn't open or close.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-04-28 13:39
Two most recent posts by Sherman Friedman on his site deal with this problem.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2013-05-17 01:26
The jaw is a complex joint, and there are several ways it can pressure things adversely - by rotary closure, or jutting forward, or pulling up on the whole thing at once. Side-to-side things happen too. So, it's possible to feel 100% sure you're not biting - and still be biting some other way.
Further, sometimes biting is hard to notice because it's unconscious. Biting must be wired somewhere down in the fish brain. We automatically move our jaws various ways pretty much all the time, even in our sleep, from all kinds of stimuli, including emotions. It can take a long time to remove adverse jaw exertions while playing.
Back to teeth. I have crowded / crooked bottom teeth, and one in the middle had a corner pointing up. After returning from a 33-year layoff, my lower lip finally got toughened enough after about a year and a half that I could mostly ignore that, but a three hour session could still make that spot sore. I had my dentist grind off the point - it made things MUCH better. So, ask your dentist.
Ha, sidebar - my top teeth weren't even in height. Almost all the pressure on the top of my mouthpiece was from the right front tooth. It unbalanced the whole clarinet, and I had to compensate (muchly by biting, btw). I asked my dentist if he could fix that too, and he said sure, and ground down the higher tooth to be close to even. Made playing way easier and (as far as I can tell) better sounding.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Orlando Natty
Date: 2013-05-17 14:34
I have very sharp bottom teeth so my lip can develop a little rough patch at times as well. It doesn't have to do with how hard I bite, but rather the sharpness of my teeth.
When I had to practice a lot in college I would wet a piece of cotton, fold it over my bottom teeth and then suck most of the water out of it so it formed to my teeth.
Sometimes you only need a half piece of cotton depending on the thickness of the cotton puff. If you don't use too thick of a piece it really doesn't mess with your embouchure or create air leakage.
It's a cheap, easy, and disposable way of creating a lip saver.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
