 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-07 01:34
So, I'm trying to find a way to accomplish this without having to have my clarinet permanently changed... ever since I switched to a mouthpiece with higher pitch, my Tosca has been running considerably higher in pitch. Almost everything else has remained consistent, but my clarion D, D#, and E have become incredibly sharp-- in relation to the tuning across the horn, these notes are running 30 cents or more higher. I am able to adjust, but I would like to find a solution that will make that adjustment easier and not so drastic.
After discussing with my clarinet teacher, he seems to think that putting waterproof medical tape in the tone holes might help... I've been reading up a little on the internet, and it sounds like this would be the best non-permanent solution. The question I have is which tone holes would I put tape into? And, would this make the lower register equivalents of these notes run too flat?
Thanks!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-04-07 03:06
How are the twelfths below those notes? Keep in mind that anything you do to flatten the pitch in the clarion will also flatten the chalumeau twelfths below.
You should make sure the overall pitch of the clarinet is where you want it before trying to correct individual notes. If the whole clarinet is sharp you need first to find a way to bring most of it down, probably with a longer barrel. Or you could decide the mouthpiece is causing too much hassle and look for one that doesn't change your Tosca's intonation so much.
There was a recent thread about putting various materials in tone holes to make the pitches flatter. The thread was about throat notes, but the same principle would apply. The two main materials were plastic electrical tape and "bluetac." You generally put the material along the top of the circumference of the hole directly under the one you're trying to flatten (the first open hole). That makes bringing D5 down a little tough. Look for the thread about sharp throat notes.
Karl
Post Edited (2013-04-07 06:02)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-04-07 04:46
Silly question, but have you played them without using the Eb pinky key for venting? Maybe with this new mpc you can forego the pinky key on those notes to bring them down in pitch.
Have you tried other fingerings for them? Middle finger for d# instead of sliver key? Maybe holding down the c pinky key to try to lower it even more?
Just wondering cause I had a mpc that allowed me to forego the pinky key until I hit f# and just needed to relearn some fingerings and change some preferred choices, depending on if it was easy enough to get to them in the given passage.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2013-04-07 14:12
bethmhil wrote:
>>>... ever since I switched to a mouthpiece with higher pitch, my Tosca has been running considerably higher in pitch.<<<
Switch back to a mouthpiece with lower pitch.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-07 16:33
After going to my new mouthpiece (Vandoren M30, non 13-series), I switched almost immediately to a longer barrel, and this basically brought the overall pitch of the horn down to a comfortable level. I play in a concert hall with the piano & percussion tuned to 442, so I can't bring it down too much!
I did do some work last night with tape inserts. I put one insert into the D tone hole, bringing the E down to a comfortable level.
However, the work I did on fixing the D & D# didn't really have much of an effect. It took me a while to figure out which tone holes needed inserts, so I'm hoping I did this correctly... for the one tone hole that is opened for D#, I put 2 layers of tape in this one. For fixing the D, I put 3 layers of tape into the key that is open for D and above, and closes for C# and lower... but as I said, there really wasn't much of an effect. The pitch of the D was brought down a few cents, but the D# is still running 20 cents or more higher. Should I put in more layers of tape? The tape inserts don't seem to be affecting the twelfths in the chalameau register... yet.
On this horn, D-E in the clarion register have always ran rather high. The twelfths seem to be fine, other than the G#. It does run considerably higher than the G & A around it, though not as much as the D# does. I've actually learned to vent for the G#/D# by adding the Gb/Db key... it's pretty bad.
Is there anything else I can do, or is there anything my repair tech could do?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-04-07 20:25
I've two M30s. One is a stock non-13 series M30, and the other is am M30/13 with the 88 beak that has been refaced with a shorter lay by Lee Livengood.
To get to kkA=440 on my Buffet RC Bb or my Yamaha SE A with the -13, I have to push clear in with a 66-mm Buffet Barrel.
With the non-13 M30, I have to pull out a couple of mm at the barrel and another mm or so at the middle joint.
With a couple of Zinner blanks (which model?) I also have to pull a couple of mm.
On the RC, the clarion E, F, F# (both fingerings) are a bit sharp regardless of mpc or tuning barrel. My teacher's R13 has had the right hand tone holes shimmed by Moening with tape in their upper half, and he doesn't have to accommodate these notes as much as I do.
I don't much like the stock M30 because it requires an uncomfortable amount of mouthpiece to be stuck into my mouth. ( I know it's not true, but it seems like there's no room for my tongue a between the roof of my mouth and the tip of the reed.)
I'd be really tempted to put the M30 in my "loaner mouthpiece" ziploc bag.
Bob Phillips
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2013-04-07 20:54
Are you sure that it isn't with the sharper mouthpiece with the longer barrel is just disproportionately effecting your upper joint notes?
The 13 series mouthpieces are really solid in terms of 440 pitch consistency. I'd rather go with the 13 series and a shorter barrel then the other way around. I find it allows for more flexibility.
That and clarinet players often play sharp, and it is annoying.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-08 02:13
The barrel I use is only a 66mm... I totally get what you're saying James, but I would be surprised if that would be causing this problem. If I was using a barrel that was 67mm or longer, then I would think that's a definite possibility. However, as I said before, these notes have always ran high on this horn. I can recall having this same problem & having to use vent fingerings when I played on my Gennusa mouthpiece a few years ago... and that mouthpiece plays obscenely flat. So, I don't think it's the mouthpiece.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2013-04-08 02:40
My first teacher taught me this method of lowering sharp notes on the clarinet. I believe he learned it from Stanley Hasty.
The method is to add small strips of white medicinal tape in the tone hole, only on the top side (toward the mouthpiece.) You have to make sure that the strips are not so wide that they protrude into the bore. Never apply the tape to the downward side unless your situation is really drastic.
As mentioned before, you must take into account all the notes that vent through that tone hole, as you might very well make another note worse. For example, your Bb below the staff might be usually sharp, but the twelfth above, top line F, is usually in tune or slightly low. Fixing the Bb will make the F worse.
To know which tonehole to apply the tape - if you are closing a key, it's the next lower tonehole on the instrument. If you are opening a key, say the side Bb/Eb key, it's the tonehole under that pad.
This is a cheap, easy, reliable method to improve tuning, and it has the advantage of being both durable and easily removable and makes no damage. Some people have cautioned that the surface of the tape might dull the tone. I haven't noticed that myself.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New Mouthpiece - the CXZ_G11*
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-08 03:25
Thank you for this wonderful explanation Walter! I think I was right in where I added the tape strips... however, the tape in the "C/F" tone hole was too low, like you cautioned, and it actually came undone when I swabbed my horn tonight. I'm going to talk to my repair tech tomorrow to see if he has suggestions and/or ask him to put the tape strips in, as I clearly can't do it very well.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2013-04-08 05:17
One thing to mention - this method does not work very well if the tone hole is deeply undercut.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-08 19:55
I talked to my repair tech today, and he ended up bending the key stopper for the RH D#/G# key so that it doesn't open quite as much, thus lowering the pitch. I'm going to take the key off once more and put a layer of tape in the tone hole. Thank you all for your help and advice!
And, I think it's been confirmed that I should probably give the M30 back to my clarinet teacher and get my own 13-series version. I'm tired of playing so sharp!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-04-09 22:20
Why would anyone in the USA tune the percussion and the piano to A 442? Oboe players will not like it as the most used oboe in the USA, the Loree, is factory tuned to the USA standard of A 440. I have three Lorees and they do not like A 442 at all! Laubin, the most serious oboe maker in the USA, will not make high pitch oboes.
With my R13s and my R13 Prestige Buffets, I have no problem with pitch being too high. Both are made with A 440 pitch as a goal. With winter temperatures being a little colder, they take longer to get up to pitch. The Tosca should be in good tune with a normal mouthpiece and should not need tape in the toneholes. However, you may even need a 65mm or 64mm barrel to get a little higher.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2013-04-10 01:11
Strange. The oboists here at ISU have no problem with playing at 442 (or higher).
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-04-11 04:41
"Why would anyone in the USA tune the percussion and the piano to A 442?"
Perhaps so they can use them with just about any of the major symphony orchestras?
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