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 How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Annika 
Date:   2013-04-05 16:11

We all know that companies tend to market their new models as "revolutionary inventions," "unprecidented perfection" or the like, and we all know (in theory at least) to generally take those claims with a huge grain of salt. On the other hand there is no denying that certain products have evolved immensly over time. Someone arguing that his computer from 1980 is just as good as a modern one would be deemed eccentric at best. But this is a clarinet forum, so let's talk clarinets! It's not uncommon to see players here praise their instruments from maybe the 50's to 80's, attesting that they have yet to find a modern instrument able to surpass it.

So, could someone please enlighten me what real, objective differences are to be expected between a well-kept and serviced professional clarinet some decades old and one that just left the factory today or maybe a few years ago? When would you consider it rational to let one's old horn retire or find a new home in order to replace it with a newer instrument? (I realize that there is no single answer to fit all, but am interested in your opinions.)

My own situation is that I am – and intend to remain – an amateur player. I play a LeBlanc L200 from 1978, at the time the top-of-the-line offer from that company. Its first owner was my childhood clarinet teacher who sold it to me in the mid-80's for a very reasonable price during my second year as his student when he himself was upgrading to a new instrument. (I had been playing my father's old, less-than-good student instrument up until then, and my teacher was absolutely right that it was time for me to get something better.) I asked him why he was changing instruments and he explained that as a teacher he was entitled to a substantial contribution towards a new instrument for work every seven years or so, and taking into account the money he got from selling the old clarinet, the cost for himself to upgrade would be rather modest. He also explained that the requirements which he as a full time professional had on instruments were understandably much higher than those of amateurs and young students. I don't recall exactly any more what he considered inferior on the L200 compared to the instrument he replaced it with. He may have mentioned minor differences in both tone and intonation, but he still thought it was a very fine instrument. I don't think the ergonomics were an issue, and I'm unsure if the new instrument had any extra key or other new feature but it's not impossible. (He got himself a Buffet, but I fail to remember what model it was. I was just a kid back then and knew nothing about different clarinet models.)

Fast forward a couple of decades. I had been on an extended hiatus from the clarinet after high school and just decided to return to the instrument after more than fifteen years of almost no playing at all. I started practice a lot and took private weekly lessons during one semester or two to get back on track. I also joined a community orchestra shortly after having started with the lessons. The private teacher really liked my playing, but considering that all his other students were children or adult beginners I didn't think that said a lot. It was also appearant that he thought I should get a new and better clarinet, but he failed to give me any clear arguments on how that would be beneficial to my playing or what was wrong ith the one I already had. He himself had just bought a brand new Buffet RC Prestige with which he was clearly enamoured. I honestly personally never cared much for the tone of his instrument, but of course kept that opinion to myself (until now.) He was obviously more than happy with his instument, and that's what mattered. I also got the impression that he didn't hold much regard for any other brands such as Le Blanc and Selmer. Perhaps we just had diffrent concepts of the desireable clarinet sound?

Anyway, I'm still playing the same horn, having only changed mouthpieces. I like it quite a lot, and have over the years grown used to its quirks. I haven't thought a lot about that unsolicited advice from my teacher a few years back to replace it, but I can't help sometimes wondering if he had a valid point and if a new clarinet would make such a considerable improvement on the music that it could justify the cost. I have noticed (both before and after the hiatus) that the inherent intonation of my clarinet is a bit different from the average fellow clarinet in the bands I have played with. Mine tend to be somewhat better in the whole chalemeu and the lower half of the clarion registers, but terribly flat on the C at the top end of the clarion, though no more than I can correct for with alternate fingerings or voicing. I do however find the altissimo difficult to play well in tune, but have no idea how much to blame the instrument versus insufficient practice. My different orchestra directors have never hinted at any need for me to upgrade the instrument, and at least the most recent director is a professional clarinet player and teacher. Right now I'm "inbetween orchestras" not playing with any other players at all, hence also practicing less often, but I hope to find a new orchestra after a planned move around next year and then once again become a more active player.

I expect to get the advice to visit a clarinet shop and try out some current models for myself, which I may very well do some day. But I would appreciate to learn more about what improvements to expect in a new clarinet, things that could not be achieved by simply having a good technician go over an old instrument.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2013-04-05 16:20

I'm not a fan of the old vintage models.

But I do wish the recently new (and newer) Clarinets would have much better plating quality.

Plating should not start to wear at the 2 Month mark. Not pointing at any particular make, but I've seen it in several different high end manufacturers.

Wears way, way too easily these days!!!

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: pewd 
Date:   2013-04-05 16:26

And plastic pins shouldn't break, and key cork shouldn't gum up and stick, also after 2 months.
And tenons shouldn't bind and need to be sanded down, or cause cracks.

I'm in agreement with David's comments on the plating - wow - plating should not wear off after having an instrument only a few months... Happens all the time to my students..

E.G., the newer instruments have too much 'sloppy' in the manufacturing process. Quality control was much better decades ago (jeeze, I'm getting old).

- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2013-04-05 16:50

Many older clarinets are not only fine but can be better on many fronts than newer horns. Much of this depends on the individual's satisfaction in their current situation.



However, if you would have been asking "What if any interesting improvements have been implemented in the past few decades (which you don't seem to be asking), I would say there are quite a few interesting adaptations due to the plethora of custom makers and the challenge that comes with more competition.

These newer ideas are rather 'small' in contrast to the larger idea of making music (think of all the great players of the past who are still considered better at what they did than most if not all of today's players).

But, as one who enjoys practical technical innovations, there have been a bunch that can be seen on the Rossi, Gerold, Backun and other such makers I'm sure to leave out.




...................Paul Aviles



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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: John J. Moses 
Date:   2013-04-05 17:07

Hey All:
Has anyone mentioned or tried Clark W. Fobes fantastic new Eb Clarinet extension. I think it's the biggest improvement to the Effers sound and intonation ever! IMHO

JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2013-04-05 17:27

The Boehm-system clarinet ("standard Boehm") which most people play is essentially unchanged since about 1890 or maybe even earlier.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Garth Libre 
Date:   2013-04-05 17:54

I think you will find that most contributors to this board respect older instruments and some believe that there are older instruments that are somehow superior and perhaps beyond what is even possible today. Logic tells me that modern instruments can be better to a small degree than older respected classics. I doubt that anything new is vastly better than the best of 30 years ago. I would appreciate it if people will enumerate exactly what they believe about the best modern instruments is improved over the best of prior years. I hear a lot of generalities but few detailst. I own an older instrument and one of the better modern instruments. I see differences but no reason to think that someone couldn't prefer either one over the other based on personal preferences.

Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2013-04-05 18:03

From my observations the quality of wood used in pre-WWII instruments is far superior to that of modern clarinets.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2013-04-05 19:08

Except that the internal dimensions can change over the years.

What's the name for that, I can't recall ;)

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2013-04-05 19:55

The main develpoments in clarinets are in production and manufacturing techniques which aim to produce uniformity between instruments - only thing being that wood is still a variable substance so that only goes some way.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Garth Libre 
Date:   2013-04-05 21:33

Look at that - the famous, much loved, much sought after clarinets are Buffet R-13's from the early 70's (all made with post WWII wood). The quality of the wood supposedly had already taken a tumble (which I believe), but the quality of the end product was up. Nowadays, the best wood is harder for companies to come by, but some of the products still rival and can surpass the best of yesteryear. I suspect that the future of clarinets still resides with engineered wood products something on the order of an improved Greenline.

Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: pewd 
Date:   2013-04-05 21:47

@John M. - A friend of mine has one and loves it - it really helps the tuning.

The hole in the bell of some modern instruments is an improvement as well (Forte' for one).

A student just called with a maintenance issue and reminded me that the adjustable thumb rests keep breaking...

- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2013-04-05 22:14

The adjustable thumbrest fiaso can easily be resolved by fitting one stamped from sheet metal as Yamaha fit to their clarinets instead of using a weak casting for the thumbrest part which breaks under pressure and a locking screw made with a short thread which strips easily.

And while Greenline exhibits a very stable and dense material, it's notoriously brittle and there are scores of accounts of broken tenons which prove this.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Taras12 
Date:   2013-04-06 02:48

I can't speak for the composite from which the Greenline Clarinets are made, LeBlanc's Composite for its Bliss series appears to be quite resilient and satisfactory for the beginner and possibly the intermediate player. I think the technology using composites for musical instruments is still in its infancy and we may see entry level professional models in the future. Finding sustainable, dense woods will be a challenge.

With modern manufacturing techniques, there is more consistency and uniformity in instruments. The "polycylindrical bore" is one aspect of modern technology benefiting the art.

In today's "Burger King" and "McDonald-land" society that wants instant gratification, the room for fine craftsmanship is left only for the few who can afford the cost. One can't speed the process of properly curing wood. There will still be classic instruments, we, commoners, probably won't own them.

Tristan

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Clarineteer 
Date:   2013-04-06 07:15

Plating wears off in a short time due to the insufficient amount of sulphur used in the plating process which our strict pollution regulations require.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: clarinetguy 2017
Date:   2013-04-06 18:13

Garth, Chris, and Tristan have all offered interesting remarks about clarinets made from composites or engineered wood products. My prediction, for whatever it's worth, is that these products will continue to improve and gain greater acceptance.

Hanson clarinets are not well-known in the U.S., but I noticed on the company's web site that they offer instruments made from "reinforced grenadilla" and "Bi-thermal Reinforced Grenadilla or BTR." Does anyone have experience with clarinets made from these materials?

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: sonicbang 
Date:   2013-04-06 19:09

For 6 or 7 years my main Bb clarinet was a Buffet RC Prestige. No doubt, this is a high end model from one of the world's leading manufatcurer. That particular horn was selected from many others and I was always trying others just to feel good about how fantastic is my own one.

About a year ago I bought an old Leblanc LL. It was made around 1968. I planned to have it overhauled and sell it. But after I play tested it (after the overhaul) I knew it's way better than my Prestige. Intonation was not an issue anymore, it has very even registers, the sound is full but flexible and the mechanics are comfortable. This Leblanc is my main Bb clarinet now. I use it in a professional symphonic orchestra and there is no blending problem with Buffets.



Post Edited (2013-04-06 20:18)

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2013-04-06 20:02

I still play a set of Buffet R-13 Prestige's from 1988.

I've owned (own) many others, but they are still the best that I've played.

Probably blown out ;)

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Garth Libre 
Date:   2013-04-06 21:13

I must remind people on this board that there was very recently a test between modern violins and Stradivarius and Guaneris. The players were blindfolded and had the smell of the older violins disguised. The audience was also blindfolded. Overwhelmingly, the players and audience picked the modern high quality instruments over the Strad and Guaneri. Still, most of the famous violinists would like a Strad if they can obtain one. I think that accomplished clarinetists at least own a Buffet Prestige or Devine or prized R-13 being that they are relatively inexpensive, especially compared to a prized Strad. Often the pros prefer a modern Yamaha or a Rossi or Bakun even if they give the nod of respect to a classic Buffet or 1010. Clarinets differ so much in character that often we are discussing issues of individual taste rather than definable superiority.

Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Taras12 
Date:   2013-04-06 23:16

Garth Libre wrote:

> ...Still, most of
> the famous violinists would like a Strad if they can obtain
> one. I think that accomplished clarinetists at least own a
> Buffet Prestige or Devine or prized R-13 being that they are
> relatively inexpensive, especially compared to a prized Strad.
> Often the pros prefer a modern Yamaha or a Rossi or Bakun even
> if they give the nod of respect to a classic Buffet or 1010.
> Clarinets differ so much in character that often we are
> discussing issues of individual taste rather than definable
> superiority.
>
How true! Sometimes just owning or playing a classic becomes the thrill. I used to play the pipe organ in high school. I had a chance to travel to Germany and play on an Arp-Schnittger Organ (the equivalent of a Strad Violin). It was beautiful, the acoustics in the church were wonderous, but, I didn't sound all that great...adjusting to the mechanism, acoustics, etc. was too difficult for the once in a lifetime experience.

No doubt there are some vintage clarinets that are magnificent in the right hands. I'm afraid mine aren't the right ones.

Tristan

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: sonicbang 
Date:   2013-04-07 19:37

I had the chance to try my former teacher's Buffet pair. Robert Carré built himself those ones for an anniversary. The Bb and the A clarinet has a serial number next to each other. They are PERFECT regarding all aspects. They sound like when THE CLARINET should sound. The Bb and the A clarinet sounds and feeels identical, just the A sounds a half note lower. I will remember this feeling in my whole life. Toscas, Elites, Devines are worthless compering this ones. And they are at least 40 years old. So did the clarinet improved? The knowlidge and skill was there almost a half century ago. Now we have precision machines, CNC and laser nothing has improved.



Post Edited (2013-04-07 21:28)

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2013-04-07 19:37

I agree that modern manufacturing technology should (and probably has) enabled more consistent results in the making of mass produced iclarinets.
The best student and intermediate level instruments of today are in my view better than their equivalents of 50 -60 years ago.

However what has happened in the same time is the removal of skilled craftsmen from the making process of the higher level models.
No amount of CNC magic can replace the skill and knowledge of those craftsmen.

Those skills now only exist in the workshops of a few boutique makers and in the small German handmakers.



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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Taras12 
Date:   2013-04-07 23:51

Norman Smale wrote:

>
> Those skills now only exist in the workshops of a few boutique
> makers and in the small German handmakers.
>
You've hit the nail on the head. The problem with wood is that even seasoned, it is ever changing. The true craftsman allows the wood to "speak" to him. In so doing, the hairbreadth shaving brings the true quality of the instrument. No machine can ever match that.

Tristan

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Garth Libre 
Date:   2013-04-08 00:13

I'd like to know exactly what "hairsbreath" shaving goes on in the construction of clarinets. Are we talking about the bad tenon fitting that some clarinets experience? Are we talking about hand enlarging tone holes or undercutting?

Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Taras12 
Date:   2013-04-08 15:02

Garth Libre wrote:

> I'd like to know exactly what "hairsbreath" shaving goes on in
> the construction of clarinets. Are we talking about the bad
> tenon fitting that some clarinets experience? Are we talking
> about hand enlarging tone holes or undercutting?
>

I'm mainly talking about tone hole boring, under/overcutting, even the actual bore alignment and adjustment. Even a single part as "simple" as the barrel, (just a hollow tube) can be affected by as little as a discrepancy in the bore placement, diameter, symmetry... Try several several different barrels made out of the same wood, each sounds slightly different. Let even a single one warm up, take it to a different climate or even oil it (gasp) and you will notice a slight change in timbre, pitch, etc.

I'll give you a more extreme example, the Japanese Shakuhachi. A simple tube with 5 tone holes and a diagonal cut (for the mouth "piece") is made out of a select species of bamboo root stock. The bore, hole placement, angle of the mouth opening is actually an art in itself and no two flutes play exactly the same (let alone the variable of the artist).

Tristan

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Garth Libre 
Date:   2013-04-08 16:10

Oiling a barrel is something I thought was a good idea. You posted a "gasp" in your reply in reference to oiling the barrel, that has me worried about one more thing that I thought I was doing right. I was supposed to oil the bore every 6 months or so ... wasn't I?

Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2013-04-08 17:04

Morrie Backun does specify to oil his barrels. Off hand, I don't recall how often though. At least once a year, maybe more.

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: SteveG_CT 
Date:   2013-04-08 17:05

Garth Libre wrote:

> I was supposed to oil the bore every 6
> months or so ... wasn't I?
>

This is always a controversial subject. Some people say that you should oil on a schedule, others say you should only oil when the instrument "needs it", and still other say that oiling hurts the instrument and that you should never apply bore oil. Personally I think that the benefits/perils of bore oil have been overblown.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2013-04-08 19:48

In basic principle "new" wood needs oiling more frequently than old and well played mature wood.
Perhaps once a week /to once a month on a new instrument and once a year on a well played in model.
As noted in previous post each piece of wood is different.
I have barrels where a very thin coat of non-drying oil (e.g. Doctor's bore oil or almond oil) will become fully absorbed into surface in a few hours and others equally old/mature when the oil will still glisten on the surface 24 hours after application.
Clearly the wood is telling you how much or little it needs.

Most important is to oil the end grain of the barrel socket (a child's paint brush is a good way to paint it onto the end grain).

Always use a good quality non-drying type bore oil (e.g. do NOT use linseed oil which hardens and congeals on the surface).



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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Taras12 
Date:   2013-04-08 22:16

Sorry -- I didn't mean to reignite the controversy about oiling one's instrument.

The point is that wood, even after the tree is cut, is a "living, breathing" entity. The craftsman takes that into account when making an instrument. Additionally, two identically made clarinets will not be identical in sound, timbre, tone, etc. due to the individual nature of each piece of wood.

Tristan

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: FDF 
Date:   2013-04-08 22:38

How much has the clarinet evolved over the last few decades? I think the Duck Theory applies. If it sounds like a clarinet, looks like a clarinet, and plays like a clarinet, it must be a clarinet. Perhaps the biggest change has been in the way the clarinet has been taught. The sound comes from the player, not the instrument, in my observation. The instrument is an extension of the person performing. The best musician sounds the best.

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 Re: How much has the clarinet evolved over the past decades?
Author: Arnoldstang 
Date:   2013-04-09 00:26

I agree. It doesn't matter whether you have a Ferrari or a Ford Focus. It's the driver that counts.

Freelance woodwind performer

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