 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2013-04-01 21:46
My daughter has a German made E11 that she uses with a Vandoren M13 Lyre Series 13 mouthpiece. She likes the combination but it plays 20 cents flat (consistently flat). It does play in tune if she uses the mouthpiece that came with her E11. Anyhow, we went about trying various mouthpieces to try and come up with a combination that worked. She tried the following Vandoren Profile 88 mouthpieces; M15, 5RV, 5RV Lyre, M30, and B45. With the M15 she found it played quite flat (15 cents consistently) but she liked the mouthpiece – too bad, rejected. The M30 and B45 played in tune but where too open for her tastes – rejected. She liked the 5RV Lyre although it would take some work to get use to – rejected. She finally settled on the 5RV (it came later in the test) as it plays in tune with a Backun 64mm barrel (-5 cents with the stock E11 barrel) and it feels fairly close to the M13 she had been using. The Backun barrel was picked up on Ebay and she likes the sound of it (granadilla) and at 64mm is does sharpen things about 5 cents over the stock barrel. I just thought I would put this out their because a few people have been talking about E11’s playing flat.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-04-01 22:03
The "13" Series mouthpieces will play flat compared to regular (non-"13" Series) Vandorens, so if you're already playing on the flat side, the "13" Series mouthpieces are best avoided.
If she's playing flat with a regular Vandoren mouthpiece and a barrel shorter than 66mm, then have the clarinet checked to be sure the toneholes aren't occluded or the ventings aren't too low - if all those factors are fine, then it's more likely a reed strength or embouchure issue which should be addressed by a clarinet specialist teacher (as opposed to a Jack/Jill-of-all-trades general woodwind teacher or a band director).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2013-04-01 22:27
Standard E11 barrel is 64.5mm not 66mm as an R13 so going to a 64mm barrel from a 64.5mm barrel isn't (and didn't) effect pitch very much (roughly 5 cents accross the board). Clarinet is in good working order (checked that first) and her private teacher as well as her band director didn't have issues with her embrocure. It was noticed by her band director during a lesson. Hasn't shown up in an ensemble setting as she plays Bass Clarinet in that. Band Director, private teacher, and repair tech suggested mouthpiece/barrel/reed combinations.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-01 22:35
The mouthpiece is largely to blame. A standard pitch mouthpiece on an E11 will play quite sharp (same as putting a 64.5mm barrel on an R13).
The M15 wouldn't be a big change and it's available in the standard pitch non-13 series.
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2013-04-02 16:30
What I was surprised by was that the standard M15 (non series 13) played just as flat at the M13 my daughter had been using. Is there that much variation among two samples of the same mouthpiece (i.e. two M15's, one very flat, one in tune)? The other standard mouthpieces allowed her to play in tune (440hz) and not sharp.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2013-04-03 11:27
Are you sure it was the standard M15?
Be aware that you need to test the tuning after a few minutes of playing.
There is no doubt that the 13 series plays a bit flatter. This is not a complex issue, just use a shorter barrel if she is playing flat (I'm assuming she is voicing the notes the same way each time).
Chris.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-04-03 12:48
I don't think the mouthpieces or clarinet is to blame here - the problem is most likely with the player and their embouchure which needs addressing. Short barrels will only do so much but aren't a remedy if the player plays flat.
If anyone is playing flat with every mouthpiece they try, then it's about time they received better instruction from a highly experienced and qualified clarinet teacher who can see the problems and offer the correct training to put things right.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Orlando Natty
Date: 2013-04-03 13:14
"Hasn't shown up in an ensemble setting as she plays Bass Clarinet in that."
Could switching between bass and regular clarinet be part of the issue? I only played bass briefly in an ensemble many years ago, but I recall having to drop the position of my jaw quite a bit to play bass. Maybe she's using a bit too much of the bass embouchure on the regular clarinet?
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-04-03 15:40
See if another player (preferably a pro or highly experienced player) plays as flat on the same instrument and mouthpiece (wash with Sterisol or at least soap and water). Then go from there.
The M13Lyre is a great mouthpiece and should stand her in good stead with other instruments in the future, so I would not be so quick to switch it, when a shorter barrel --perhaps from that unmentionable auction site--would be cheaper.
disclaimer: I make barrels and sometime offer one on spec. on that innominate place.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2013-04-03 19:33
The markings on the M15 were those of the standard one (i.e. non-series 13). Of course it could have been mislabled at the factory - wouldn't be a surprise. The other three standard Vandorens played at the correct pitch. Of course, the mouthpiece that came with the E11 played at the correct pitch - my daughter isn't a fan of that mouthpiece though.
A question. I did look at getting shorter barrels. Since the standard E11 barrel is 64.5mm how short would barrel need to be to raise the pitch 20cents? 60mm? 61mm? 62mm?. Does Buffet make one?
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Author: annev
Date: 2013-04-03 21:11
I don't know if this is helpful, but this was my experience with the barrel/mouthpiece combination issue. I play on an Evette and Schaeffer, which is an older version of the Buffet E13. When the clarinet came (I bought it second hand) it had a 64 mm barrel, which had been cut down. The 64 mm barrel played at pitch (A = 440) with a Vandoren series 13 mouthpiece (it was an M15). I later changed to a standard (non-series 13) mouthpiece, and because everything was slightly sharp, and I knew the original barrel should have been longer, bought a second hand 66 mm Moennig barrel to go with it. This combination also plays in pitch (A = 440).
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