 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: idahofats
Date: 2004-07-11 15:17
I've been wondering for a while about the lack of roller-keys in the lower-joint spatula key clusters of American/French soprano clarinets. (I couldn't find a previous thread on the subject using "roller" as a search term.) German manufacturers such as Clemens Meinel and Kohlert seemed to produce rollers sporadically from the early 1900s onward, but I haven't seen any American attempts in that direction. Is it a matter of economics or ergonomics---do the rollers fail to provide smoother transitions between chalumeau E/F and clarion B/C, etc.? Does anyone know if any of the Big Four ever experimented much in that direction, and if so, in which decade?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-11 17:15
The history of roller use on clarinets is given by Curt Sachs "The History of Musical Instruments" pg 414, crediting C Jansen, Paris 1823, with the innovation,"to facilitate the legato from key to key" obviously on Muller/Albert [simple system] cls, since the Boehm system was created/adapted [from flute] by Buffet, Klose, Sax, Mollenhauer from about 1839. The modern German cl by Oehler et al has developed somewhat from [experts please help me] the M/A's, but, I BELIEVE, does not have the degree of little-finger-key-crossfingering as does the Boehm, which does not [badly] need rollers [for "slide" fingerings]. IMHO, the early use prob. was a development from the earlier insts., oboe family, bassoon, flute and other "keyed" insts. I hope Al Rice will "chime in", his comprehensive book on Classical Period Clarinets prob. discusses this, {not found yet}. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: idahofats
Date: 2004-07-11 19:28
Thank you muchly for the rapid reply and sources, Don. I may be indulging in wishful thinking as regards rollers, since age and CFS are beginning to make rapid key slides painful (it doesn't hurt in the fingers, but rather the elbows.) I did finally find a thread in the Klarinet Archives, which led to a very funny discussion of the history ofGraslitz, Czechoslovakia...a pleasant way to spend a hot Sunday afternoon.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2004-07-11 19:47
I've seen rollers on only one Boehm clarinet - a Couneson Monopole. And not all of them had rollers.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-11 20:26
You are welcome I F, t'was a bit of challenge for an "indoor" Sunday. It was in the 3rd book I consulted, likely Groves "Dict. of Music ---" [in a library] may have some addl. info. TKS, Fred, you made me think [again!]. I have a very old A [Boehm 19/7] clar. a Penzel Mueller?, with rollers on the rt hand LF Ab/Eb and F/C even tho it has the alternate lever for left LF !! Duplication ? I F, your ref. to CFS missed me, apparently its not one of my "ills", I just became 85 [years young], Hang in there. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-11 21:16
Didn't realize it until I read it....but I've been wondering about that too. I guess....my guess is that the manufacturing cost exceeded the need. I myself do "slide the keys" occasionally but think I read somewhere that such fingering was to be discouraged. I don't have any particular problem accomplishing it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-12 13:42
Sliding the spat keys is easier if you don't lick your fingers after eating your BBQ ribs...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-07-12 14:07
Consider this hypothesis: Rollers assist sliding in only one direction (perpendicular to the axis of the roller), which is fine on Albert clarinets that have only two keys involved. But on Boehm clarinets with four-key clusters (r.h.) and three-key clusters (l.h.), to be effective you'd need multiple rollers oriented in various directions --- sounds overly complex to me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-12 14:13
Yeh,Dave, adjustments down there are tough enough without rollers
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-07-12 15:54
Wasn't there a post here awhile ago about wiping the outside crease of your nose with your pinky finger just before you get to the spot where you have to slide from one key to the next? A little more convenient, I would think, than the BBQ chicken although the latter would be great for long rests.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-12 17:17
Rite Brenda, that's an OLD plug-casting bass [not cl!] fisherman's way of lubricating the level-rewinding screw on an antique reel !! My dad taught me that back in the 1920's when he trained me to "row the boat" [what name is here associated?] so that he could cast the weeds/reeds [in mid Mich !]and catch fish !! Only slightly related, GBK/MC !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: idahofats
Date: 2004-07-12 18:26
I found your link to Schwenk and Seggelke extremely interesting, Javier. (If anyone else looks, there is an English version.) It excites me to see someone playing with new ideas or fusions of old ideas. That strikes me as progress, even if the mechanisms don't turn out to perform ideally. At any rate, my offline conversations with Don and Dave made me re-think what exactly is my personal peeve with the spatula keys. With regard to the r.h. cluster only, my pinky doesn't like the jump from the outboard keys to the inboard ones. It is easy to snag the ball of the finger unless the motion is exaggerated. I am going to play with non-permanent attachments to the underside of the inboard keys which effectively extend the teardrop shape downward onto the flat underside of the keys. At least on my R-13, there is a good 1 cm gap between the inboard and outboard key even when the inboard key is depressed. The idea, in the clarion, is to facilitate r.h.-only transitions from B to C and C# to D# when the l.h. is clumsy due to Jettel-type musical complexity. Oh well, I've beaten it to death...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-07-12 19:05
Hi again I F - On reading your last [above] missive, it hit me that ONE of the advantages of raising [my inversion of] the thumb rest, was to ease problems the rt. LF might have is accessing the rt. cluster, in partic. the E/B. You might try briefly putting your rt. thumb ABOVE the T R and see what it does for LF access. It sure helps me! Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-07-12 20:39
A left hand Eb/Ab key eliminates most situations where a slide is necessary to execute a particular sequence of notes. Still, having rollers between right hand Eb/Ab and C/F might be nice. The Schwenk and Seggelke clarinets look like nice instruments and have some other interesting features.
Post Edited (2004-07-12 20:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim lande
Date: 2004-07-13 03:18
I have one metal boehm with two sets of roller keys. It is some french brand which I can't remember at the moment -- but nothing I had ever heard of before I got this clarinet. Unfortunately, it is at the shop. Yesterday the tech explained that the rollers were so badly jammed that he would would have do major surgery to get them off -- at a minimimum destroying the hinge rod. Given that I don't know whether the rest of this instrument is worth playing, we're going to leave the frozen rollers as is. (Yes, I tried weeks of oil then heat to no avail.)
I think Dave's post makes a lot of sense. At the moment I am fooling with a full boehm -- think about how many roller combinations.
I have been sitting here trying to slide my right hand pinkie from low F# down to E and back. I can barely get my fingers to make that movement. It must not be a useful combination.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: eaglgenes101
Date: 2013-03-23 05:36
Is the curved shape of the pinky keys supposed to do a similar thing at lower cost?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MichaelW
Date: 2013-03-23 16:26
These days, under „A-Klarinette Böhm-System F. G. Uebel Marktneukirchen (sic!) ~1910“, a 7- ring instrument with rollers in lower joint keys is offered on the German auction site. Interesting fotos!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-23 22:04
The curved shape of the touchpieces is for both comfort and to give the opportunity for the player to slide should they want to, although Boehm system clarinets are designed so sliding isn't really necessary as the pinky keys are largely duplicated.
Some Boehm system clarinets are still being made with roller keys - reform Boehms have them on the F/C and Ab/Eb keys and German clarinets have them on both sets of pinly keys out of necessity.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-03-24 20:43
I find that 95+% of slides I make are between the F/C and Ab/Eb keys.
Having tried the Schwenke and Seggelke reform clarinets I personally find their rollers really do help a lot.
I also find the shape of the S&S right hand F#/C# and E/B keys much more user friendly than the conventional Boehm shapes. I have never ever encountered a need to slide between these keys so the curved shape is redundant. The S&S shape provide a much more stable platform to land on.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
