 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-21 16:36
A seller from Poland on Ebay has just offered a Selmer Centered Tone that he claims was the personal clarinet of Benny Goodman with an opening bid of $9900.00 and a buy it now for $17500.00. Is this possible?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-03-21 17:23
Anything is possible. There would have to be some seriously credible paperwork to get that kind of money for it...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-03-21 17:31
When considering this purchase, remind yourself of the words of P.T. Barnum.
I would accept nothing less than verification from Selmer
and possibly from Mr. Goodman's heirs.
Caveat emptor
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-21 17:40
I paid £1500 ($2500 at the time) for a set of matching (consecutively numbered) Series 9* clarinets that were once owned by Gino Cioffi which I think was a very good price considering they were very well looked after and in top notch playing condition, but couldn't justify paying $9900-$17,500 for a Selmer made up of various bits - the bell isn't a CT bell. There has to be documentation to back up these claims.
A local clarinettist paid around £250-300 for Jack Brymer's old 1010 Bb (the one with the repaired middle tenon).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-03-21 18:16
I sold my CT, a very good one, for about $100, years ago. I paid $250 for it new in the 1940s; however, I was not as good as Benny.
richard smith
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Author: William
Date: 2013-03-21 18:23
What are you going to do with it--play it or put it on a pedestal?? I once played on a clarinet owned by jazz great, Chuck Hedges......and guess what--I still sounded like "me".
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-21 18:49
Hope they washed it first!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-21 19:33
According to a number of past postings here, Goodman used a number of different clarinets, mostly Selmers but even at times Buffets. So, even if this instrument were once used by Benny, how exclusive would it be?
The Selmer 10G A clarinet I own was played for at least a few rehearsals and performances by Anthony Gigliotti. But there are probably dozens of such 10Gs - both As and Bbs - around Philadelphia. He was always testing them and then selling them to replace them from the next batch when it came along.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-21 19:52
That's the case with my Series 9*s - while they were played briefly by Gino Cioffi (he played them for one concert and sold them to a pupil of his who I bought them from), they were one of many instruments that passed through his hands and ones he didn't play all that much. There were some barrels being sold on eBay that he apparently used and these were going for a considerable sum.
Still, the £1500 I paid for a set of 1967 Series 9* clarinets with 19 keys/7 rings is still perfectly reasonable considering you'd be hard pushed to buy a clarinet with that keywork from the big name companies nowadays - and £1500 is a fraction of the cost of a single instrument built to that specification.
I'll be watching this CT purely out of curiosity - I doubt it'll sell and it will no doubt end up being relisted for some time to come with the "Buy it Now" price diminishing each time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-03-21 20:10
Clarineteer wrote:
> A seller from Poland on Ebay has just offered a Selmer Centered
> Tone that he claims was the personal clarinet of Benny Goodman
> with an opening bid of $9900.00 and a buy it now for $17500.00.
> Is this possible?
It wouldn't surprise me if there are a lot of clarinets formerly owned by Benny Goodman. That being said, the asking price is extremely optimistic on the part of the seller.
One of Goodman's clarinets sold for a little over $16k a few years ago at a Sotheby's auction, but the difference is that the one sold by Sotheby's had significant provenance (letters from the manager of his estate) and was thought to be the actual clarinet he played at the 1938 Carnegie Hall concert (making it probably the most historically significant clarinet of Goodman's).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-21 21:12
There was an article about his 'Gramercy 5' Buffet in one of the clarinet publications - it had the LH Eb/Bb sliver key removed and the tonehole and pillar holes filled in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-03-21 22:36
The Gramercy 5 was Artie Shaw's group, not Benny's. Artie used a Buffet with that combo, switching to a Selmer for the Big Band numbers. He said the Buffet gave him a woodier chamber sound, while the Selmer had more "shout."
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: FDF
Date: 2013-03-21 23:28
If the seller has the paper work to verify that the clarinet was indeed a Benny CT, why then we should all be happy that someone thinks it is that valuable. What about a Picasso? or a Salvador Dali?, or you name it from a period artist. Clarinetist in the American Jazz styles were truly artist and their work and the artifacts that establish them should be worth the same kind of money as trivia from lesser American idols and we should not resent that.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-03-21 23:44
I submit that there's a fundamental difference between a Picasso painting and a Goodman clarinet. In the first case, the painting is the product, the end result, the work of creative art. The clarinet however is just an instrument used to create the art, which is the music coming out of the clarinet. A better comparison might be one of Picasso's paintbrushes to Goodman's clarinet. Or, Elvis's underwear, as I wrote before.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-03-22 00:39
If Elvis's underwear were washed, the value would drop by half. Really.
I think BG played a Selmer Balanced Tone for most of his famous records. He used a Buffet R13 only, I think, for classical music.
I've read that Artie played a Conn for most of his career.
Ken Shaw
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-03-22 01:06
According to Vladimir Simosko's bio/discography of Artie Shaw (pg 129, The Scarecrow Press/Rutgers University, 2000) Artie Shaw endorsed the Conn "20N Connstellation", but didn't actually use it. "Unfortunately, it just didn't work on the job," he said. Simosko says Shaw played Selmers on the bandstand until 1953, when he used Buffets for his final Gramercy 5 sessions (the sessions from 1940 and 1945 were therefore presumably recorded on a Selmer).
Most of the shots of I've seen of Shaw show him holding a Selmer--often an enhanced Boehm BT--which is what this looks like to me:
http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/a/artie_shaw-in_the_blue_room_in_the_cafe_rouge.jpg
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2013-03-22 01:26
To the OP.
This sounds like a bogus offer, lacking any other verification. Caveat emptor, indeed. And, frankly, what WOULD the real value be? I'd be curious to know what a museum curator, or Sotheby's or Christie's, would place on the genuine article.
A B-flat R13 that Benny Goodman played late in his career is in the permanent collection of musical instruments at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in Manhattan. I'm sure that's not the only R-13 he played, but it may have been one of the last.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-22 02:18
Oh crikey! I got in a right old muddle there!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-03-22 02:42
weberfan wrote:
>
>
> To the OP.
> This sounds like a bogus offer, lacking any other
> verification. Caveat emptor, indeed. And, frankly, what WOULD
> the real value be? I'd be curious to know what a museum
> curator, or Sotheby's or Christie's, would place on the genuine
> article.
>
As I mentioned in my earlier post, one of Goodman's clarinets actually was auctioned by Sotheby's a couple of years ago. This one was a K-series Bb and was said to be his primary clarinet during the 1930's and early 1940's. Sotheby's had estimated that value at $20k-30k but it ended up selling for ~$16k.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-03-22 03:27
fwiw, Ken, it appears Artie did play a Conn on the stand at times--he seems to have even helped in the design of the Connstellation that he endorsed. The trouble seems to have been that it sounded good in the studio for him, but didn't work on the bandstand. I've also heard anecdotes of Artie having occasionally played a Conn on the stand--so you weren't exactly way off the mark.
Looking into it again was interesting, for me, if only for one thing--Simosko seems to have concluded that Shaw's pre-1953 recordings were done on Selmers, which would include the Gramercy 5 recordings from 1940-1950. I'd always felt those were more similar in style and approach to his Big Band recordings, whereas the 1954 sessions really stand apart from everything else. "Special Delivery Stomp" from 1940 is not only derived from Shaw's "Man from Mars" Big Band chart, but the clarinet approach seems basically identical too, which has always lead me to believe that the early Gramercy 5's were played on a Selmer. Speculation....but interesting.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-03-22 05:16
When I was in college, I knew a student who had one of Benny Goodman's old clarinets, a Selmer BT. According to him, he purchased it from his private teacher in high school. Goodman had given the clarinet to this teacher in gratitude for help the teacher had given Goodman setting up a performance while on tour. It's been a (very) long time and my memory of the story is cloudy but, as I recall, my friend said that Goodman was pretty hard on clarinets on tour and Selmer used to supply hiim with new ones (perhaps as many as a half dozen) each year. According to my friend, Goodman would give the old ones he had worn out and new ones he didn't particularly like to people who had done him favors. (I know this is not consistent with the common portrayal of Goodman as a skinflint but there it is.)
So, I agree with Steve, even if the clarinet is legitimate it's not nearly as rare as the Polish seller would have you believe (and may believe, himself).
BTW, I tried playing my friend's clarinet once. It nearly gave me a stroke it was so resistant. I don't know how my friend played it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-03-22 16:19
I know from personal experience that a CT can range from extremely resistant to quite free blowing depending on how it is set up. I got one from the auction site for a great price, but was very disappointed in its resistance when it arrived. I worked it over, replaced pads and cork, and did some tweeking and it is now very easy blowing and a great player.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-03-23 03:57
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> It's been a (very) long time and my memory of the story
> is cloudy but, as I recall, my friend said that Goodman was
> pretty hard on clarinets on tour and Selmer used to supply hiim
> with new ones (perhaps as many as a half dozen) each year.
I've heard similar stories. I suspect that there are probably quite a few clarinets formerly owned by Goodman in circulation. Personally I might pay double the normal price for a Selmer CT if it could be proven that Goodman once owned it but probably not more than that unless there was a really good (and well documented) story to go along with it.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-03-23 13:22
Drucker did the same. Posed with Leblanc but p layed Buffet.
richard smith
Post Edited (2013-03-23 13:25)
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Author: Leo Sesemann
Date: 2013-03-23 13:50
I think I remember a couple of years ago when there were some of Goodmans clarinets for auction. The asked prices were really low... on the same auction were a lot of other instruments, and the most expensive one was a sax owned by Charlie Parker (I think it was more than $160.000). The Goodman clarinets were far under $5.000. One or two years ago there were also a couple of clarinets owned by Artie Shaw, they were between $2.000 - 3.500 as far as I remember.
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Author: gkern
Date: 2013-03-23 22:13
Benny never played my CT, as far as I know, but I wouldn't give it up for anything, even if he had.
I have read that he used 1-1/2 reeds; how he ever hit those high double c's and made them sound so sweet, I will never know, if in fact he was using such a soft reed.
Gary K
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-03-24 00:50
gkern wrote:
> I have read that he used 1-1/2 reeds; how he ever hit those
> high double c's and made them sound so sweet, I will never
> know, if in fact he was using such a soft reed.
>
You might find this post interesting. One of our members got a chance to play one of Goodman's clarinets along with his mouthpiece at Yale a few years ago. His experience was that a #1-#1.5 reed was necessary on Goodman's mouthpiece (a Woodwind G7* in this case).
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=264795&t=257556
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-24 18:05
As I suspected no one was willing to pay the price for the Benny Goodman clarinet that the seller was asking.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-03-24 18:22
If only two Benny Goodman artifact collectors are both wanting to own one of his clarinets for their collection, then they will set the price for it by bidding against each other. If this clarinet is definitely one of his and has legitimate documentation to prove it, then it will be worth to the collector what they pay for it even if it doesn't sell for the ridiculously high price the seller is asking for. They'd be much better starting the bidding at a reasonable price and letting the bidders fight it out, provided it is genuinely one of Benny Goodman's clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-03-24 18:57
Odd that he would have set such a high price on the instrument. When I sent him a message asking about documentation, in trying to assure me that it was authentic he said "getting a clarinet from Benny would not have been a big problem".
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-03-24 20:55
Just checked my collection of original LP records and found Vol I and Vol II of Benny Goodman The Famous 1938 Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert on Columbia Records. After listening to both LP's all I can say is WOW.
Post Edited (2013-03-24 21:29)
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Author: Guy
Date: 2013-03-24 22:27
One of Goodman's clarinets (Selmer Paris K) sold for just under $29,000 at Heritage Auctions in 2007. If you have an account there, you can view the horn and case in excellent detail.
Another, made for Goodman in 1929 and which has his name inscribed on the bell, sold at Heritage in 2006 for just over $10,000.
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Author: mb190d
Date: 2013-03-25 00:29
Besides Malverne, Dave Weber did ads for Selmer while actually playing Buffet.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-03-25 17:40
Even Ansel Adams took photographs for advertisements. I know, because I asked him face to face while standing in his darkroom, that he did not use most of the products he photographed. But, while he produced fantastic art, he had to earn a living. I see no problem with someone appearing in a photograph holding a clarinet they don't actually use so long as there is no claim made to the contrary.
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