 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: michael13162
Date: 2013-03-21 02:01
Guys, I need help with my embouchure. At a recent masterclass I played at, it was pointed out to me that my chin wasn't flat like it should be. My teacher was there listening and we went over it during our weekly lesson. So I understand that the chin underneath the lower lip should be flat like a smile (but without the corners being pulled out), but mine seems to bunch up and resemble a strawberry. It seems like I am putting too much of my upper chin into supporting the reed. Also, my teeth rest a bit less than a centimeter lower than the lower lip instead of directly on the lower lip.
I have been trying to maintain a flat chin while playing clarinet at the same time, but every time I try to seal the mouthpiece, my chin goes up too. I've tried this again and again for a while now in front of a mirror and seem to be stuck. If I want to seal the mouthpiece at all, I have to bunch the chin up. Trying to pull the corners in doesn't seem to help. I found a pretty good image depicting what I'm describing. Here's the url: http://www.clarinet-now.com/images/clarinet-embouchure-strawberry.jpg
Here's a link to a youtube video of me where you can see my chin fairly well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eNdaPjUzLY
Thanks for all your help!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-21 02:44
What exactly is this "strawberry chin" doing to your sound or control that makes it so important?
Put another way, did the teacher of the masterclass hear something he/she didn't like and diagnose the bunched chin as the cause? Or did he/she just look at you as you played and decide your chin didn't look flat enough?
Karl
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Author: michael13162
Date: 2013-03-21 02:54
I don't know what makes it so important but I don't want to be practicing a bad habit. Just searching for professional clarinetists images on Google, you see that they all have a very flat chins. So I assumed what I was doing was wrong and I could improve on my tone by using a more correct embouchure.
She just said that it looks like I'm bunching up and I should try to have a flatter chin. If all the professionals are doing it like that, then shouldn't I try to emulate?
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Author: michael13162
Date: 2013-03-21 05:21
I've read that chapter and I think I've got it. I have rather large top teeth and as Mr. Stein says, it's coupled with a receding jaw line. That was a big reason why I couldn't get a seal before. His descriptions were very helpful. Thanks for the link.
As of right now, it's really awkward and I have to make a conscious effort to correct my embouchure. I can make a good tone with air leaks on all the notes in the chalemaue but anything clarion and above, and the air leaking comes. Time for more long tones :/
Here's a picture of what I've achieved so far. You can see now that my chin is flat.
This is what I was doing before:
http://imgur.com/HGtAVC9
And this is what I've managed to get to:
http://imgur.com/WYHsVaj
Post Edited (2013-03-21 05:38)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2013-03-21 12:03
Why bother changing? If you were playing well before the masterclass then why change? I've always believed that you should stick it in the mouth and blow it. Sometimes things can be over complicated.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-03-21 14:30
Michael -
Your second photo looks much better, but you need to snug your upper lip down tight to seal with your lower lip at the corners. It's what Keith Stein called a "dressy" embouchure. He played double lip, which made a big difference. Long tones are perfect for strengthening the necessary muscles, as is playing double lip, at least for long tones. When you leak uncontrollably, stop and let your lips recover. About 10 minutes is all that human muscles can stand. Give it your best time, at the beginning of each practice session.
When I was learning this, I found it helpful to concentrate on feeling the point of my chin pulling down, stretching my lower lip flat.
About half of the red part of your lower lip should be inside your lower teeth.
While it's impossible to tell without hearing you play, I think that taking a little more mouthpiece inside your lips could help. Hold the clarinet sideways and find the point where the reed separates from the lay. Mark this lightly on the reed with a pencil and put the mark on your lower lip right over your lower teeth.
Also, if your jaw is short, you will need to hold the clarinet more vertical to compensate. You'll be in good company. Daniel Bonade, Ralph McLane, Robert Marcellus and Bernard Portnoy all had short jaws and all did this.
It can be done, faster than you think. Keep working. We've all gone through this.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-21 15:13
Still, keep in mind that music is an aural art - you judge the result with your ears. A mirror is useful when there's a problem in the sound that can't be corrected by changing things inside your mouth (where no one can see) or by changing the characteristics of your reeds. Everyone's physical structure is different.
You mentioned earlier that the chin should be as it is when you smile but with the corners of your lips not pulled back. As it happens, my chin doesn't move when I smile, nor in fact can I seem to smile (I've sat here trying to do it for the last 5 miinutes) *without* pulling my lips back. Other's experience must be different from mine in this respect.
It may be that this change is needed to deepen your sound and improve the response when you play large ascending intervals (based on your video). But it may also be that you don't need to make so drastic a change in your approach, which right now seems to be disabling you as a player and may not fit your facial physique.
Karl
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Author: michael13162
Date: 2013-03-23 01:29
I've been working more at this and am able to play the full range now.
Although, the pitch seems to be much more wavery than before. Also, I've found I have to rely on my air stream and corners much more with a flat chin.
Quick question: I also double on tenor sax and am wondering if you should have a flat chin for that embouchure as well?
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-03-23 06:15
I really like the way Michele Gingras demonstrates a good embouchure and how to get there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SlFgO4Hi5k
You'll notice that she doesn't say a word about smiling. When you mentioned this, it reminded me of the way I was taught back in the 60s. I was taught to put the lower lip over the bottom teeth, tighten up, and pull back into a smiling position. That's old school. A few people might still do that, but I don't think this kind of embouchure produces a very good sound.
You might want to experiment with double lip. If you're still leaking air playing single lip, you might find it easier to "seal up" playing this way.
Ken, it was interesting that you mentioned Keith Stein and The Art of Clarinet Playing. I studied with him in the 70s near the end of his teaching career. Stein was a real gentleman, a fine clarinet player, and an excellent teacher. I treasure my copy of the Rose 32 etudes with all his markings. I frequently consult The Art of Clarinet playing. Having said all this, I would urge some caution about Stein's advice in his embouchure chapter. There's a lot to wade through, and after reading all of it, some might be more confused than when they started.
He has many good suggestions, but some of his advice is rather dated. For example, I'm not sure how many teachers today would offer this advice to students:
"On looking into the mirror one should be able to see a valley-line around the immediate lips with a dimple formed on either side of the mouth corners."
It's quite interesting that David Pino, one of Stein's most devoted students, offers somewhat different--and much more succinct embouchure advice in his book, The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing. If I were a young player trying to improve my embouchure, I'd be more inclined to follow Pino's suggestions.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-03-23 06:42
clarinetguy wrote:
> It's quite interesting that David Pino, one of Stein's most
> devoted students, offers somewhat different--and much more
> succinct embouchure advice in his book, The Clarinet and
> Clarinet Playing. If I were a young player trying to improve
> my embouchure, I'd be more inclined to follow Pino's
> suggestions.
Then why would you even mention Gingras' concepts?
I find both misguided, but who am I?
-Jason
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2013-03-23 23:24
Some teachers are adamant about the flat chin thing. But is it really a matter of right or wrong?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-23 23:50
I guess it depends on who(m) you ask - one who is adamant about it or one who isn't.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-03-25 15:49
I find Pino's book almost unreadable. Go with Keith Stein.
The reason for a flat chin is to get as much tissue as possible out of the way and let the reed vibrate. That's what works for 99% of the world.
Ken Shaw
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