 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-13 04:41
Hello all. I've been trying to get a better tone in terms of a good round and kind of dark sound but I was wondering what the best thing to do is. Over the past 2 years, I upgraded my clarinet and mouthpiece and ligature (my old clarinet and equipment wasnt keeping up) any hints or tips to getting a better tone?
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-02-13 04:49
Proper mouthpieces, embouchure, and voicing for you all lead to better tone production. But the number 1, highly emphasized way of achieving so called "dark, round tone" is to listen, listen, listen!!! Listen to performers, soloists, orchestral performers play that you think have a dark round tone in their sound. This is a HIGHLY subjective topic that has been debated for years. People will tell you voicing in the tongue position help, lower lip and embouchure tips that will help, equipment that aid you to help. But, you must have a sense of what the sound is you're trying to achieve before any of that can happen.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-02-13 11:24
AIR, AIR, AIR !!!
Ok, you've all heard me say this before but it's never going to be different folks. You need to supply a very steady stream of air.
The way to do this is to engage your abdominal muscles (many cite the diaphragm but all that does is draw aie IN) to actively push air out (ya know the ol' "Go ahead, punch me in the stomach" stance...... tightened mid section).
Then you must have a focused column of air. Position your tongue as if you where tying to cool off a hot cup of coffee.
The test is if you feel the clarinet actually vibrating under your fingers. If not, you need to keep trying until you do.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-02-13 16:29
In addition to the suggestions above, without the mouthpiece in your mouth, say "aaaahhhhh". The space in your oral cavity is what you're trying to achieve while playing. I focus on producing more space in the top front portion of my mouth, if that makes sense.
Disclaimer: everyone is different, this works for me. YMMV.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-02-13 17:02)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-02-13 18:27
Dear Laurie,
The problem with "AHHHH" is that (if you really sit down and analyze what you are doing with this) it is pushing the back part of your tongue further down and over the top end of your throat. This results in LESS air flow, or as John Yeh used to say, "open throat is closed throat."
Just a natural, relaxed position of the tongue is fine for general applications. Or you can think the "EEEEEE" syllable sound. Varying the position of the tongue as you would in vocalizations utimately has the end result of minutely changing your air speed (which needs to happen depending on the octave and loudness of your chosen note). But again, this is minute and can be achieved using your abdominal muscles in the same way a flute player must produce vibrato.
Bottom line is that air speed must be as quick as possible.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-02-13 19:14
Paul, hmmm, interesting, this may be a case of what works for one doesn't work for another.
When I articulate EEEEEE it pushes my tongue forward and raises it a bit, and constricts the back of my throat. It doesn't feel anything like when I play (I have always been told I have good tone quality.) I have more air flow when I articulate ahhhhhh. (Maybe I should have used phonetic transcription. I am speaking of the phonetic/latin long A, NOT the commonly mislabeled English long A, which is the diphthong "ay", which does have a constricting affect. I may have confused that by originally printing aaaahhhhh. It is the sound of a as in father).
Of course the goal (at least in my thinking) is an very open cavity behind the teeth, but without restricting air flow. The Aaaahhh (or EEEEEE) may only be partially successful, other adjustments in the placement of the tongue, etc. may have to be made by the player.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-02-13 20:02)
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-13 22:42
my current setup is an R13 with silver plated keys, gregory smith kaspar cicero mouthpiece, and a vandoren optimum ligature. i also recently bought a royal cohler grenadilla barrel. i mean i hear a lot of people that are in college that have better tone than i do and im only a senior in high school and im really just trying to get a good tone right now. i have a pretty good one but its not the right tone i want.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-13 23:17
You may have a problem with the Cicero style mouthpiece. From what I am aware, this mouthpiece has a shorter facing curve, which while accentuate the upper partials of the tone. I hate to tell you to try other equipment, but maybe trying a Chedville style mouthpiece would help you. These have a longer facing curve.
The ligature is fine. You may try a fabric style ligature to help. I really like Rovner Dark ligatures.
What reeds are you playing on? This could have some influence.
As far as playing is concerned, if you "try" to do anything, it's probably not going to happen. To try means to put effort into something, which would require muscles, which leads to tension, which ultimately leads to achieving the opposite of what you want. Focus on good posture, and don't worry about anything internal, your body will do that all on it's own. Approach the mouthpiece at different angles to see how it effects your tone. Also, record yourself to get a second opinion. Maybe what you hear in your head is different from what others around you hear.
Drew S.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-02-13 23:20
AIR. AIR, AIR !!!!!!!!!!!
Is necessary in a quantity... as Paul thus spake of. But clearly extrapolated, we do employ a wind-instrument.
Is it needed that we state more beyond that of the concept of "air." ????!!!
A problem inherent in the prior prose is that the "vowel" formations disputed by those above have little to do with the true act of clarinet-ing.
I would merely ask for proof by those promoting a specific oral-cavity formation (be it what it may) that what they THINK OCCURS while playing is tangible TRUTH in real-time
-Jason
Post Edited (2013-02-14 15:56)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-02-14 00:43
Drew,
You mean well, but... equipment is a red-herring.
-Jason
Post Edited (2013-02-14 05:28)
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-14 01:07
if i even think of upgrading a mouthpiece though im not gonna do it until next year. i mean the mouthpiece i did have was a big upgrade from my vandoren masters.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-02-14 02:30
Just to clarify, I don't personally feel the oral cavity itself has anything special to offer. What I refer to is whether one allows the freedom of air INTO the oral cavity.
So.......... to Laurie's point about raising the tongue WITHIN the oral cavity, I contend this is GOOD because it focuses the air stream to be thinner and hence QUICKER !!!! The occlusion to which I refer is actually the air supply from the throat (or rather the choking off of air supply by making the HOLE smaller). This may not be an easy distinction to grasp at first but it is important in understanding what I'm trying to convey.
"Others" of much greater repute have in one way or other spoken of this so I don't feel I'm being too controversial, just redundant.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-14 02:32
I've probably repeated some version of the following nearly as often as Paul has given his advice about air. The question, as you've asked it, is really impossible to answer in a way that would be reliably useful to you.
In the first place I doubt if anyone here really knows what you mean by a "good round" tone and I'm certain no one really knows what "kind of dark" means, even putting aside the actual aural meanings of "dark" and "bright." What is "kind of?"
But even beyond that, the problem is that none of us really has any idea of what you currently sound like. Paul's advice about air is excellent, if the problem with your sound is that you don't put enough of it through the mouthpiece. But is your sound thin and airy or loud and harsh? All of us who teach have had students whose sounds were really loud, harsh and out of control. Pushing even more air in such cases only distorts the sound more. The list of problems that could explain a poor sound is too long to include here, and which ones are applicable to you depends entirely on what defect you're trying to fix.
You'd get far more from a good clarinetist or, even better, an experienced clarinet teacher sitting in a room with you who can actually hear your sound. It doesn't need to be the beginning of an ongoing relationship - a lot can be done in a single lesson with an experienced teacher. And you won't be going off in a dozen different unproductive directions.
So, my main hint/tip is, find a teacher.
To get anything meaningful here, try to describe in more detail the problem in your sound that you're trying to solve. You can then eliminate some of the more obviously less useful suggestions.
Karl
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-02-14 04:09
Jason, I think it is happening because I hear it in real time, as I am clarinet-ing (as you put it). I can even hear a difference while playing as I focus on increasing the oral cavity. It may not work for you, but note my disclaimer. (I'm not just making this stuff up.) I am only a novice player in a local community band, so I am sure I could learn something from your years of professional experience. I eagerly await your positive contribution to the topic.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-02-14 04:14)
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-14 04:26
i have a good teacher shes really well known. a lot of people know her her name is Mary Kantor. ill bring it up in my next lesson with her
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 04:44
Jacob, I will have to call Gregory Smith for more information about your mouthpiece. I cannot find the exact details of it online. I'm sure it is a fine mouthpiece, and I did make an assumption that it has a short facing curve. I had a conversation with Charles Bay the other week about his mouthpieces, and he makes a Cicero style facing that has a shorter facing curve to his Chedeville styles. I have played a Clark Fobes "Cicero 13" for some time, and it had a short facing, so I associate Cicero with shorter facing curve. The Gregory Smith could be different, again, I will need to call and confirm with him or an associate of his. And "short" is a relative term, so I would need to find out what scale we're talking about.
You still haven't told us what style reeds you are playing. This could be another quick fix to what you are looking for. If you haven't tried Rico Grand Concert Select Thick Blanks, they have lots of heart and a nice deep tone.
I'll restate some of the above. Record yourself, maybe you'll sound better to yourself from an outside perspective. The instrument resonates through your teeth and could provide a false listening situation.
Good posture and breath support if you tend to play lazy, only you would be able to tell that. Others above have offered some good advice as well.
To all of us here on these boards, there is no right answer to these problems presented. Maybe what I say will help. Maybe what Paul, or Jason, or Laurie, or Karl, or someone else will present an answer that will work for the original poster. It is all trial by fire in the end, and eventually the switch will flip, and you understand what it all means, and how to achieve the sound you are looking for. It is a stressful world lately, and music is supposed to be a joy and a release. If music is adding stress to your life, maybe it's time to put it down for a bit, and find some joy. It's too short and precious to waste.
Drew S.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 22:51
That's ok Jacob,
I tried calling Gregory Smith today, but he didn't answer. I sent him an e-mail requesting specifics to his mouthpieces. Anyhow, it's not a concern because you will be sticking with this mouthpiece for some time anyhow.
From the Vandoren Website:
"When playing in acoustics where the musician feels that his reed sounds too 'muted,' he may choose a 56 rue lepic or a traditional reed to give him a better response and increased flexibility. Conversely, a musician finding his tone a little too bright (the so-called clear tone), might change to a V.12 to achieve a darker, warmer sound without an aggressive edge."
Maybe trying V12s is a cost efficient way to bringing out some of the low end. Try size 3.5 if you decide to choose this route.
I'm sure your teacher will be much more beneficial that I have been, but I'll say again, focus on good playing posture and maybe try thinking of some different vowel sounds as you play. I don't want to get in a heated debate over it, but personally I believe it's "ah" in the low register and "ee" in the top, not that I like to think on those lines. What works for one doesn't work for every, so don't be afraid to experiment. Long tones are just that, long, but they are your friend. I watch TV as I do them, and it makes it less horrible.
Good luck. I'm interested in your progress if you feel the urge to post it.
Drew S.
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-15 16:31
if they have 3.5+ ill look for those but if not ill get a 3.5 and tell you guys how i feel. i used v12s before but on different mouthpieces and have yet to try them on these so ill let you guys know how i feel about it. im using plenty of air (something that my teacher and i have been practicing on for a while) and posture is good too. ill try different reeds and ill comment back on this when i find out! thanks for all the info guys. i really appreciate it especially since im trying to be the best that i can be before college!
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-15 17:54
I just got off the phone with Gregory Smith. For those of you interested in the shape of the Gregory Smith Chedeville vs Kasper Cicero, the Chedeville has a large chamber deep baffle, the Cicero has a small chamber shallow baffle. The all have similar facing curves. None, the less, the feeling what I had said above isn't entirely inaccurate.
V-12s don't come in 3.5+, but check out the vandoren size comparison index on this page: http://www.vandoren.com/en/clarinetreed.html 3.5 V12s should feel the same as your Rue 3.5+. This is due to the shape of the cut, not that I know exactly why. I would assume the V-12 has more cane in the back. Gregory Smith recommends V-12s 3.5 or 4 for his mouthpieces, so probably worth a shot. Whatever you choose to do, I hope it works out for you.
Drew S.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-02-15 18:35
Actually Vandoren does sell the V-12's in 3.5+. Just got my box yesterday from Muncy Winds. WWBW and many other online stores sell them as well.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-15 19:42
Also Weiner Music. I just finished a box of them.
Karl
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-15 22:58
Oh, good to know. Vandoren should update their website. I would imagine they will feel a bit heavier that the Rue 3.5+'s.
Drew S.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-02-16 19:35
They do. I feel they have more bottom end to the sound making them fuller. That's why they're so popular with orchestral players because of the fullness in the sound they give. In my opinion...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-02-16 20:12
Ignoring all the relevancies and irrelevancies above, there is something that Yona Ettlinger used to say that I think is worth passing on.
Before doing so, apropos the irrelevancies -- I really don't know what to do with them, other than to be rude about them. I seem to be relatively alone in this; perhaps the other dozen or so qualified people here think that politeness is more important. (I'd say it's not.)
But what their stance means is that what people like Paul Aviles and Arnoldstang say here -- their definitive pronouncements of WHAT IS SO about clarinet playing -- have equal presence to what people like Karl Krelove say here.
It's a terrible shame.
Anyway, back to Yona Ettlinger, who would have to be acknowledged by anyone as a superlative player.
He said: we do better to work on the chalumeau register to begin with, and consider the clarinet register as an upward extension of that.
I'd say that any clarinet player worth their salt would recognise what he meant. We all find the clarinet register much easier to deal with, much more expressive. It can be tempting to think of the chalumeau as an add-on.
The chalumeau requires more careful address, and is much more sensitive to embouchure mismatch. But actually, when you work hard at it, the clarinet register benefits from the work too.
The story is that Yona required all his beginning students to play nothing but long notes in the chalumeau for a few months before attempting anything else.
I think myself that that's a bit extreme; but I understand what lies behind it.
Tony
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-02-16 22:16
I will try not to hijack the thread, but since the topic has been broached, and it's been on my mind the past few days, here goes...
Tony,
1) agreed, it is a shame that in the internet world the experts get lost in the crowd of amateurs. Unfortunately, some of us amateurs play clarinet, but we don't know who's who in the clarinet world. If the professionals among us included their credentials in their signatures then that would help some of us realize who carries the most authority and when the rest of us should perhaps just shut up. (edit) FWIW: this board is a great gift, how rare it is to find a place where the experts mingle with the novices.
2) That being said, extrapolating from my years of college teaching, even though I entered the classroom each day as the expert who knew vastly more than the pupils before me, I had to realize that I did often learn something from my students. Being condescending when someone is wrong essentially stopped any further chance of me getting a hearing. I am not accusing you of that, but I have seen some posts that struck me that way. Of course if you consider being blunt (perhaps more descriptive than "rude") fair play, then you probably know the risks involved. (I speak as someone who is prone to cross the rudeness line, especially when it involves my area of expertise). I should say at this point I appreciate how kind Paul was in responding to my original post.
3) [Edit: as further responses show, I completely missed it on this one. I apologize and eliminate what I can, but I leave up the relevant portion only because others have responded to it.] Finally, I think it's unfortunate that you used Karl's name (albeit as representative of the rest of us). His main and original piece of advice was that the original poster on the topic should see a teacher. He essentially said trust an expert, which I think is congruent with what you are trying to communicate.
Edit/modification: 4) Regarding my own comments, which have been fortunately corrected and modified by others, I admit I am nothing more than a rank amateur. {snip}
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-02-18 20:55)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-16 22:51
I'm intrigued, amused, and fascinated. I think some posts above were edited, could some be having a change of heart?
If so, I am willing to have an adult conversation about all the subjects above.
Jason wrote "Equipment is a red-herring". To a point I agree. Having the best equipment in the world cannot fix poor technique. However, if you are fighting with your equipment, and it does not suit your playing style, it could also be an anchor to which your perfect tone cannot escape. It can be difficult to diagnose the problem in one paragraph. It can even be difficult upon listening and seeing the person play, though this can tell you a lot. This is why I recommended recording oneself, and not just audio, visually. The mirror does not do you justice. Set a camera far away enough so that you can see your whole body. Dissect your performance. See where there is tension, in what notes. Tension kills a good tone. Practice long tones on the tense notes. Try to relax while playing them. Experiment with different vowels. Get creative, think outside the box, and don't be afraid to mess up, you could stumble upon something great.
I would second that calling someone out is not the right answer. I'm actually surprised that post is still up, I think that is something "against the rules". I could be wrong. Sometimes I wonder if we all forget that there are actual people behind these posts. I think the internet can really bring out the worst in some people, because they're not scared to say what they think, and people can really think some horrible things. So many famous sports or TV stars cannot even keep up Twitter accounts, due to death threats and foul language. The information age has become a blessing and a curse.
As for resumes, I've made a youtube channel to submit with resumes for certain jobs. I recorded the clarinet stuff over a year ago. Looking at it again, I have some work to do, but other things have taken precedence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W56Vd0ypiJ4&feature=share&list=UU2-h6qKmkR94gB17wy87N-w
Drew S.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-16 23:02
LJBraaten wrote:
> His main and
> original piece of advice was that the original poster on the
> topic should see a teacher. He essentially said trust an
> expert,
Well, no, my point was that he should look for help from someone who could actually hear what he sounds like. The solution depends heavily on the nature of the problem. The OP gave us no real hint in that direction. But even with more explicit description, there would still be alternative solutions, one of which might help, many of which would still turn out to be unproductive.
Soon afterward, Jacob told us he has a teacher (whom he seems to respect) and that he would ask her *at his next lesson.* So, he has a teacher who is much more likely than any of us, who don't know Jacob and have never heard him play, to find something to suggest *that actually makes a positive difference for the problem he's trying to solve* - because her suggestions will be based on what Jacob actually sounds like. It has little or nothing to do with "authority" (assuming the teacher is knowledgeable), but about proximity and the immediacy of feedback for any suggested change.
There's a radio program on NPR called Car Talk. The two brothers who host it take listener calls and try to figure out the cause of the callers' car problems and suggest solutions. I am fairly certain that if a caller asked "How can I make my car run better," their first question would be "What's wrong with the way it runs now?"
Karl
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-02-16 23:24
Karl, if I may quibble your quibble, the teacher would not be able to help him unless she were an expert.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-16 23:34
But there are people here who are expert as well - it doesn't help much if they don't know what problem they're trying to solve. The expert with whom Jacob studies is in the room hearing both the before and the after of any help she offers. That, not simply her expertise, is the difference.
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-02-17 00:32
Well, as my name was uttered I feel somewhat inclined to reply.
Drew,
Yes. I edited my posts. Even deleting one of said tomes.
Perhaps I may compose something meant to get a point across to a particular reader/author and then choose to delete it some period of time later. (I have NOT had a change of heart.)
I suppose I am over stepping my stature by doing so; and also violating the rules of the BBoard. If the moderators see fit they can delete all of my words; or I may do it myself after a bit..... I guess in some ways I don't really care. I can't see my career being furthered by the BBoard.
BUT, as you (again) mentioned equipment.... Let it rest kid.
I'm glad that you wasted time searching out what Greg Smith builds into his Chedeville and Kaspar style mouthpieces; but who cares? This certainly has not aided the original poster one bit; nor has the weak dissertation regarding the tonal qualities of Vandoren reed cuts/strengths truly enlightened the greater clarinet population.
Actually, I could have re-measured all of my mouthpieces that fall under the Chedeville and Kaspar umbrella to help you save long-distance phone fees if so desired....... but those inquiries are empty at the end of it all.
Hopefully the o.p. can see the same folly.
Laurie,
Yes. I disputed your oral cavity pre-prescriptions.
Whatever you think while playing, or think that you do, is perfect. For you!
Though I can't see how you can prove anything to us in this forum.
But time and again, it is has been shown that the precision of what many think they actually do is distant from the truth of matters in these oral fixation situations. (or for most readers and rank amateurs--- where you honestly place yourself.)
I have difficulty accepting your prose, but I speak only for myself......
Telling someone that they should feel what you do, or attempt to replicate what you are physically feeling as a solution is ridiculous.
Following your words up with: "Disclaimer: everyone is different, this works for me. YMMV.", or "I have no idea what I'm doing but it hasn't stopped me yet! as if it vindicates you of responsibility for your post is irresponsible.
Sorry I don't have a more positive contribution as you requested.
Paul,
I don't even know where to start.......
I don't write to pander to Tony either.
He has my respect for all his work and writings (far beyond what I have heretofore accomplished.) But I also know where I am in my own music-related life; and real life.
I'll take my lumps from all givers as they come.
And as for YouTube resumes, I don't have a channel I can link to. I suppose I could post what I've done, but I don't see how that matters in this forum.
-Jason
Post Edited (2013-02-17 00:35)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-17 02:59
Jason, truthfully, I really want to hear you play. You've performed in the UK, though you've moved back to Ohio. I'm not really sure of a time on these boards when you've ever agreed with me, though I don't take it to heart, I think it's just par for the course. I think it would make it a lot easier to see your frustration if you posted a video that was shockingly good. As in, you're so good you can't understand why everyone else isn't, and why they don't get it. Maybe that's the case, or maybe some people just like to argue, not matter the point. Some people can argue that the grass isn't green. Maybe some people get a kick out of the sensation.
I still have to disagree with you about the quality of help Jacob has received. In truth, the questions posted are always the same, and so are the answers. It would tickle me greatly if Jacob comes back posting that V-12 3.5s have helped him a step toward achieving his goal. Everything said above has not convinced me I am wrong in my analysis.
Drew S.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-02-17 03:14
Drew,
Truthfully it would be more educational to show video of me at a young age and where I reached my apex.
Sadly, neither exist.
And I'm not quite sure when I stated that I was professionally employed across the pond. But I was not.
-Jason
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-02-17 03:29
And my frustration, as I can only assume others as well, has little to do with how I sound on the clarinet.
-Jason
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-17 03:38
I thought you mentioned it a few months back. It would be hard to find that exact post. I'll chalk it up to remembering incorrectly.
Drew S.
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-17 06:42
tried out vandoren v12 3.5 (not pluses) and it sounded a lot better. my tone sounded a lot more open and deep than with my 56 lepics!
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2013-02-17 11:45
There is an element of world weariness in going though elements of this again(search previous battles on 'voicing').
i would like to make some points again:
The 'oral cavity' position seems to be crucial in making a tone on the clarinet. This position is not a mystery. It varies according to the pitch of the note and all players follow the same pattern.
That being said, the way the brain processes information makes it very difficult to judge what is going on in our own bodies. Just because brilliant player X says he/she does 'this' does not mean that 'this' is actually happening. By the same token awful player Y might be correct about what they say is happening.
There are numerous studies, x-rays etc that can be looked up.
Whatever information you can find is of coarse totally ignored by others who have a different mental model in their heads. It works for them (they may be fine players), so why challenge it.
To have a 'better tone' try to be a better player.
Listen to the best examples you can find. Think about breathing and all other technical aspects. Experiment with equipment. Work with good teachers and players. Practice and perform a great deal and move towards the sound you want.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-17 14:10
Very good points Phurster. Especially "the way the brain processes information". With all the different languages and dialects, it can be difficult to convey open tone with syllables, because we all pronounce the same written word differently. That's why it's important to try multiple options and see what's best for you. It is incorrect to say, you should use the syllable "ah" for your tone, but it is correct to say I use the syllable "ah" for my tone. It works for me.
Jacob, I'm glad the reed change has helped. I wish you luck in your journey through music.
Drew S.
"To have a 'better tone' try to be a better player.
Listen to the best examples you can find. Think about breathing and all other technical aspects. Experiment with equipment. Work with good teachers and players. Practice and perform a great deal and move towards the sound you want." I couldn't agree more.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-02-17 17:06
Glancing at this thread again, I find that some people think that I objected to Karl Krelove's stance on this matter. Not at all.
Rather, I was complaining about the OTHER two -- whose posts I almost invariably find foolish. I have tried both gentle and then firmer remonstrance with each of them on several occasions; but to no avail, as a small amount of research here would reveal.
What Karl has to say, on the contrary, is almost always intelligent -- as it is on this occasion.
By the way, Drew Sorensen, as judged by my sampling of his volunteered 'resumes', could himself benefit by taking the advice from Yona Ettlinger that I posted -- as well as by addressing quite a few other aspects of his playing.
Tony
Post Edited (2013-02-17 18:13)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-17 23:27
Of course. I am by no means perfect in my performance technique. There are many others on this board that would perform light years around me. But there are two points I would have to defend my honor (honour).
1. Being a performer and a teacher are two different jobs. A great performer may not be a good teacher, and a great teacher may not be a good performer.
2. As you saw, I am a doubler, so I must split my time over many instruments. If I was just a clarinetist, I assure you, I would sound much better, but unfortunately, you mistake me for a Julliard graduate now performing in the Metropolitan Opera. It will take me more time for all the instruments to be Royal Philharmonic ready.
As far as positive qualities I have, maybe humility and humbleness is a good start. Empathy and the ability to listen. Musicality, dedication, and hard work. I hear the mistakes in my playing, but I am confident enough in myself to present my flaws. Truthfully, I'm surprised there is not more negative feedback, I know people on this board love to cut down others, instead of offering support. But I'll let you live in your own negative misery. I am a successful teacher, a successful musician, and I continue to grow. I don't think I know everything, and even though most people would shut off your comments because of the negativity in the statements, I learn from them. I guarantee you I will become more successful than those close-minded fools in the long run.
BTW, Jacob's joy and confidence in music has improved with a change I suggested. I took some time to listen to him, and address his needs. I am proud for him.
Drew S.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-17 23:56
I just thought of something for Jacob, and the rest of you. I never said that thinking syllables was wrong, I simply said don't strain, and there is not one right syllable. I'm not exactly sure why the picture of Drew doesn't like AIR!!! or syllables came from. I think this was misunderstood. It was simply already stated, so I felt no need to reinforce that particular statement.
Jacob should be trying different syllables to see what he likes. He can even change syllables as he extends up the clarinet registers, namely in the altissimo. I felt I should write that for Jacob, I don't want him to get the idea that just by switching equipment it makes you a better player. It can simply aid in you finding your own sound.
Drew S.
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Author: jacobhardy25
Date: 2013-02-18 03:20
thank you all really for the help i really appreciate all of the advice. with all the playing i have been doing this year, i really need a good tone for orchestral playing and good tone for my high school band (im principle in my schools wind ensemble and play in the seattle youth symphony)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-02-18 20:28
There are two different conversations going on here, Drew.
The first is your response to the details of Jacob's situation in his search for 'better tone'.
I of course celebrate that your idea of his using a different brand of reed has had a positive result -- at least, on his intitial testimony.
Well done.
But, good players know that NO brand of reed is a solution, ultimately.
"THIS IS THE ANSWER," I can remember myself feeling, about all sorts of things, at several stages of my career.
But what happens in the end -- with reeds, say -- is that THAT brand of reed contains a disparate collection of specimens -- just as all of them do. You might find that you get a better percentage of good reeds from a particular source; but it doesn't solve the problem that SOMETIMES there seems to be nothing good enough.
I think that's something that it's important for any beginning player to know.
Actually, the same applies to mouthpieces, ligatures, and all kit.
But FURTHER: anything that you can say about WHAT TO DO has the same problem. Double lip embouchure, relaxed posture, proper breathing -- none of them GUARANTEES anything.
And even beyond that: what is 'good tone' depends very much on the situation you find yourself in. What sounds good in one acoustic is defective in another. AND, an excellent player has to produce different 'tones' on different notes in order to sound properly expressive, in almost all circumstances.
So, we're always in a balancing act, doing our best against the odds. We're NEVER guaranteed anything.
Now, there is a second conversation.
That is: when people post here about THE TRUE NATURE OF CLARINET PLAYING, ACCORDING TO THEM, they have a responsibility to GET IT RIGHT. In my view, they're not allowed to say, for example, "The bottom line is: FAST AIR SPEED!!!"
Why? Because IT ISN'T.
I've spent much effort discussing these matters with these people. And in the end, I DON'T CARE that they're PEOPLE; I DON'T CARE that they may BELIEVE IT; I just want them to GO AWAY and stop muddying up the waters here.
You seem to me to be claiming the moral high ground with your 'humility' and 'humbleness'.
I don't like it. As I pointed out, both of those attributes are merely appropriate to your actual clarinet playing abilities.
Tony
Post Edited (2013-02-18 22:42)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2013-02-19 01:58
Is this THE Antony Pay?
If so, dig your playing a LOT. Thanks for chipping in.
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Author: job_man
Date: 2013-02-27 09:31
Over the many years I have been teaching, I have come to the conclusion that it is what you think is happening that matters, if it works! I have knocked my head against a brick wall so many times, early in my career, explaining what is actually going on, only to find that a little imaginative experimentation produces an instant result. Also, just demonstrating something and getting the pupil to watch your face operate (or fingers, if you are on that topic) does the trick. They can delve into why things happen when they do their Master's, but for the average Joe, just getting the result is good enough, I find.
Incidentally, on the topic of tone, why not take the advice of an old hand, given to me when I was very young, and that is: 'why try to imitate something(one) else; why not just be you?'. The logic of this is that nobody has exactly the same embouchure shape, lining to the inside of the mouth, tongue size, jaw muscle strength, teeth angle etc, so you are never going to achieve it anyway.
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