 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-07 12:04
I returned to the clarinet 2 years ago and started off with Yamaha custom MP 4CM but stuggled with it until quite recently I tried out various VD MPs , m15 , m45 , m40, and the ideal for me was the M30 which I am very happy with but it does have a wider tip opening and long facing so I thought Ill try out again the m15 which has a much smaller opening to use with my VD Trad 3.5 , Rico Reserve Classic 3.5 and Legere Signature 3.75. . I expected it would be a more easy blowing than the M30 , but I found the opposite , The seller guy said they were getting a new batch of these MPs next week . So, my question is , what am I doing wrong , or perhaps this one MP is faulty which I find hard to believe
Thanks for any input
Avins
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-02-07 12:28
I will speak from my own personal experience with the Vandoren M13 and M15.
A clarinet professor that I studied with last spring convinced me to go down in reed strength from 3.75/3.5 to a 3. I play Rico Reserve Classic and Gonzales FOF.
Going down in reed strength is not a sign of weakness. (Ha! A little pun, there.) Anyway, this move certainly worked for me. My mouthpieces, though old and worn, responded better and I was able to play the mouthpieces instead of fighting with them. How nice it is to be able to play, with a nice tone, without constantly thinking about my mouthpiece and embouchure.
Your mileage may vary.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2013-02-07 14:53
As the last comment implies, playing on harder reeds shouldn't be seen as a "badge of honour", or a sign of an advanced player - all that matters is the result. And of course it's easier (and very m
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-07 15:41
I've never tried an M30, so my experience here is limited to the M15. You're right that both are listed on the VD website as having Long curves, so there shouldn't be a difference there. The M15 is significantly closer-tipped than the M30, so, again, you'd be right in expecting the M15 to be less resistant.
It may have nothing to do with your experience, but sometimes a reed that's closing off mimics a hard-blowing reed, simply because it resists air pressure more. If you're used to using a certain amount of pressure against the reed to play on the M30, you may not be adjusting enough for the closer tip of the M15 and perhaps closing the reed off. Also, the smaller aperture itself may give you a feeling of pushing back in contrast to a feeling of greater blowing freedom you may get from the more open M30. It may be that you simply prefer that feeling.
It could also be a faulty M15, although if you bought it new from a reputable source, it isn't likely to be that far from specs. Testing a couple of others will confirm or eliminate this as a problem.
The reed strengths you mention seem about right for an M15 - some players probably use slightly heavier strengths. If you like the feel of the M30 but want less resistance, using softer reeds may give you the best of both worlds.
Karl
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-07 16:39
I say this with respect, are you sure you're thinking the right way?
As in, maybe you shouldn't be thinking "I need to find a mouthpiece to suit my reeds." But you should be thinking, "I need to find a mouthpiece to suit my clarinet playing." and then "I need to find reeds to suit my mouthpiece."
Reeds are the last piece of the puzzle (well, maybe ligature is, but I digress). If you like your current mouthpiece, try different reeds. If you don't like your mouthpiece, choose one that fits you and the style(s) you play.
Good luck,
Drew
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Author: Notes II
Date: 2013-02-10 00:34
Very interesting subject here and one that I am so curious about as well,
I am using a slightly modified Richard Hawkins S, However, Vandoren does not make mistakes nor do they make defect mouthpieces
I've known many musicians Sax as well as Clarinet players that use them even today.
not everyone needs to be picky enough to have them custom made for themselves, I made that mistake and now look where it's gotten me I have a weakness about being over sensitive to mouthpieces!
But when it was first introduce to me that longer rails were a way of changing angles on the chops and I was curious about these compared to the standard angle mouthpiece.
So I set off on this path to try these longer profile mouthpieces called the 88.
I went through three of these 5VR, B45 and M13. I could only use these because these were the ones that I had in the normal size or should I say standard size?
Of course I am no professional on mouthpieces so after a few weeks of strugling with it I decided to bring to the attention of a grouchy old craftsman who was known to fool around Sax and Clarinet mouthpieces and after a week with him this is what I got out of it.
Mouthpieces should A always be in tune! a good mouthpiece will stay in tune. B one must know the sweet spot in their mouthpiece.
Now you can change your flexibility of your reed buy the different types of reeds and ligatures you use and a different angle like the 88 changes your sweet spot on your chops, so if you like stick that mouthpiece in your mouth a little further, you'll learn to read it better.
Your chops will have to reset themselves all over again.
Well, I personally and still lost however still interested in this and for the tune of four hundred bucks this experiment is not yet over.
I still find myself looking out of the corner of my eyes at them every time someone makes a comment about the longer profile mouthpieces.
So if you guys figure this thing out please let me know ......................
Post Edited (2013-02-10 00:39)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-10 01:18
Attachment: Clarinet Mouthpiece.png (62k)
@ Notes II and others who would like clarification on mouthpiece part definitions:
The above was a little confusing, and I just want to make sure we all have the same definition for the specific parts of the mouthpiece. I have attached a picture that labels the specific areas. My only problem with the diagram is what they label the "facing" and "window".
The window is the hole created in between the tip, the side rails (or just call them rails), and the start of the table.
The facing is the curve from the tip to the table.
The table is labeled correctly, but I would not consider it part of the facing.
Two portions of the mouthpiece alluded to above are the beak and the facing curve.
Clarinet mouthpiece beaks come in 3 different types as far as I am aware, traditional, profile 88, and duckbill. The traditional beak is a straight line from the tip to the top of the mouthpiece, opposite the table. Profile 88s from Vandoren are a longer beak, but still a straight line as far as I am aware. The duckbill beak is curved like a duck's bill or like a saxophone mouthpiece. The beaks will affect how you hold the mouthpiece in your mouth. Play what is most comfortable to you.
The facing curve provides room for the reed to vibrate. They are labeled in general terms short (16mm or shorter), medium (17mm), and long (18mm or longer). As a generality, longer facinging curves accentuate the lower overtones, are more flexible concerning pitch, and are more difficult to play in the high register. Short facinging curves accentuate the upper partials, are more stable concerning pitch, and are easier to play in the high register. I would recommend playing a long facing on a clarinet mouthpiece. This would be equal to the Chedeville Mouthpieces many makers model their mouthpieces after.
About Vandoren. While many players rely on Vandoren products, they are still a mass production company, a process prone to mistakes. This is especially true in their reed products, which vary considerably. If you are having a problem, it is a good idea to check with a professional to see if it is you or a mistake by maker that is the cause.
You are correct about the most important factor in choosing a mouthpiece. You must be able to play it in tune. Now, intonation between ensembles varies considerably, so you may have to handle each situation with different effects (barrel length, reed strength, etc...), but nobody wants to play with someone who cannot play on pitch. Tone is subjective and secondary.
Drew
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-10 03:07
Notes II wrote:
> Vandoren does not make mistakes nor do they make defect
> mouthpieces
and DrewSorensenMusic wrote:
> About Vandoren. While many players rely on Vandoren products,
> they are still a mass production company, a process prone to
> mistakes. This is especially true in their reed products,
> which vary considerably. If you are having a problem, it is a
> good idea to check with a professional to see if it is you or a
> mistake by maker that is the cause.
As Drew suggests, there is a certain amount of variability in Vandoren and other mass-produced equipment. For that matter, there's variability in custom-made mouthpieces - that's what custom-made means. One player's preference can be another's defect. There is also the possibility that some kind of damage may have happened to the mouthpiece after its manufacture. If you get a mouthpiece second-hand, something may have happened to it while in a previous owner's possession. But even buying one new from a reputable source doesn't guarantee that a mouthpiece is in pristine condition. Occasionally, a mouthpiece has been out on trial to someone who eventually returned it, but not before he tried tweaking something unsuccessfully or damaged it somewhere not easily seen by someone who isn't looking for it.
Drew also wrote:
> The facing curve provides room for the reed to vibrate. They are labeled
> in general terms short (16mm or shorter), medium (17mm), and long
> (18mm or longer).
One of the great mysteries to me has always been what is meant by different makers by the curve descriptors short, medium and long. Vandoren even uses medium-short (MC) and medium-long (ML) and doesn't identify any of its Series 13 curves as short. I'm not sure that everyone would find an 18 mm curve long - some might begin long at 19 mm, I think that some of the Vandoren curves (the ones it identifies as medium-short) are in the 16 mm area. And, of course, some German facing curves would make 19 mm look short. The bottom line is that these measurements exist on a continuum, and a player needs to try mouthpieces at several points along that continuum to know with any certainty what really is most serviceable.
Karl
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-10 07:22
Hi everyone , I've really gained great insight of on mouthpieces form your feedback .
Im actually very happy with the M30 and 3.5 reeds , but thought of trying out a norrower MP after watching Eddied Daniels on youtube talking about the advantage of using a "smaller gap" MP , I've also seen that many professionals, well, especially in classical music use the narrower opening MPc
BTW, some people commented here that we should choose the right mp and then go for the right reed strength-not otherwise. Perahps this is true, but from what I've experienced so far , (reeds strength vz various MPc) that I can only achieve a nice round ,less "reedy"sound , from clarion to altissimo , upto high G, with reeds strength of over #3 , but more opimally #3.5 (at least with rico Reserve Classic, VD Trad and Legere Signature 3.75 and Quebec 4, )
Anyway Im now waiting for the new lot of M15 coming to the store ,
Avins
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Author: William
Date: 2013-02-10 15:26
It is of NO IMPORTANCE what mouthpiece Eddie Daniels uses--or any other "professional" for that matter--as the old rule states: just because it works for 'them' doesn't mean it will work for you. Find a mouthpiece that you think works well for you and then choose the reed--not the other way around. As for reed strength, be careful--too often the inexperianced clarinetist will rely on a stronger reed for tone quality and range rather than on embouchure strength and control. As your chops grow stronger with focused, meaningful practice over a long period of time, you should discover that you can play anything you want with a reed that is easier to blow, not harder.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2013-02-10 15:37
While it seems to make perfect sense to choose the right mouthpiece first, then the reed to match it (which was my first reaction), one might consider, from a purely financial perspective, that more will be invested in reeds over a lifetime of playing than mouthpieces. Therefore, it might make more sense to try to find (invest in) a mouthpiece to match your reeds.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-10 16:08
This assumes you've already made a major investment in reeds. I know some professional players who do stockpile boxes and boxes of reeds ahead of time, but these aren't the players who ask about mouthpiece choice in an online forum - they've generally already made their basic choice about facing parameters and any mouthpiece shopping they do is for subtle differences among similar pieces of equipment. They buy reeds by the carload to get volume pricing (or they expect to throw a lot of reeds in the trash). I suspect the majority of players who are stuck between significantly different mouthpiece types are inexperienced and not so heavily invested in reeds. But there are always exceptions and they might legitimately think the way you've suggested.
Karl
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-10 17:25
@larryb - I guess one could play a single reed for the rest of their life, and own 20 different mouthpieces to use as the reed changes. However, I do not believe this is financially sound.
Playing a woodwind instrument can be expensive, it is not for everyone. However, the difference of price between one box of reeds and another is not that drastic, and you do not need to buy in bulk for a good price. I'm not sure how things are in Israel, but we are in the internet age, so I'm going to assume our friends halfway around the world have much the same access to equipment as the rest of us. After all, my Hebrew friend tells me Israel invented the Microsoft Windows NT Operating system, IM software , and cell phone technology. I digress.
One this is certain about this topic, the combination of mouthpiece, ligature, and reed must play in tune in order for it to be usable, all other performance matters are secondary. And while fluctuations in pitch can happen as a cane reed changes due to outside influence, the overall pitch of the combination is ultimately controlled by the design of the mouthpiece. This is why it has been suggested to purchase an in tune mouthpiece first, and then find reeds to work with it. I am not sure it is possible to achieve the same end result working backwards.
A final note about reed strength, the numbers are not standardized. While they may be close, a #3 reed feels different depending on which brand/shape/style you have purchased. So to say one can only play a #3 reed does not really make sense. There is no such thing as a #3 reed, but there are such things as #3 Vandoren Blue Box, or #3 Vandoren V12, or #4 Grand Concert Select Thick Blank (what I play and adore). Response due to the shape of the reed is decidedly above all of our heads. I'm almost convinced that mouthpiece makers don't even know what they're doing, but just make a bunch of different shapes and are elated when one actually works. Since it is near impossible for us to know the exact specification of mouthpiece that would suit our reed needs, again I use this point to restate it is much easier and cheaper to purchase and try different reed makes vs the multitude of mouthpieces in the market today. Anyhow, if you purchase a new mouthpiece, your preferred reeds will feel different.
Good Luck,
Mazel Tov,
Drew
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-10 19:41
Wow , interesting comments over here, Actually I must say I never expected, when I got back to playing the clarinet, that reed/mouthpiece topic to be quite diverse, although , I think, the reeds issue for clarinetist is much simpler than for bassoonists . I played the bassoon for over 30 years, and the common joke was that a bassoonist plays on the bassoon just to test his reeds....
All the best
Avins
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