 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-03 18:59
I think it's a mistake to start a student on really soft reeds. Mine start on 3.25s or 3.5s
There's no need for it for for kids over 11 or so, and they're definitely not called for for "adult" beginners.
Aside from being easier to blow on a given mouthpiece, I've never heard a convincing argument why these are used, and I've never had a student who couldn't play a 3.25 on a medium-lay mouthpiece, including the 9- and 10-year-olds whom I've started.
In my experience, they delay proper wind and embouchure development (mostly stability) and encourage what I call "chewing," which is trying to muscle the reed around with the embouchure to make notes speak or to fix intonation.
Have at it, folks.
B.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-04 00:20
A beginning student needs to start with something that will produce a clear, controlled tone from the beginning. I can imagine starting with #3, although, I tend to begin with #2-1/2 and move to #3 after a short while. #3-1/4 sounds like grading that's available in more expensive reeds than I'm willing to ask my beginning students to use - they break them too easily. If the #3 doesn't produce a fuzzy, airy chalumeau, it should be OK.The important issue is what kind of sound comes out.
I have never used #1-1/2s with any of my students (when instruments come with them, I replace them with harder ones and toss them in the nearest trash can). I agree #2s are generally too soft unless the mouthpiece is very resistant.
But all of this is situation-driven. Rules are less important than results.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-02-04 00:41
kdk wrote:
> Rules are less important than results.
I agree 100%. Reed and mouthpiece and embouchure must match. Reed stiffness is just one variable in that equation.
--
Ben
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-02-04 03:10
Depends on the mouthpiece.
I like a Fobes 'debut' and a Vandoren traditional (blue box) #3.0 for beginners.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-02-04 11:08
Agreed overall -- Bruce what reeds do you have them playing that offer a 3.25?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-02-04 13:40
Paul, ditto exept I usually have them start with a 2.5 and move them to a 3 as soon as I can.
However, as we all know, strengths are relative when playing on mass-produced reeds. From a box of 3s, you can get hard and soft reeds. But, yeah, I don't disagree with the original poster but I personally do what Paul said.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-02-04 14:23
I've seen many beginners who can't possibly use a #3 or harder reed with a "medium" mouthpiece. They would barely be able to get any sound, if at all. This includes both young kids and adults.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-04 17:28
James,
I guess I wasn't absolutely clear about what I do.
For the first two or three lessons, I start them on standard 3.0 Ricos or Vandorens until they get to the point where they can keep one a week or two without turning it into toothpicks. Once they learn how to be careful with them, I switch them to 3.25 Gonzalez F.O.F.s. or soft Rico Reserve Classics 3.5s from my collection.
I don't see any reason why they should scrimp on reeds, given what they're paying me to teach them! :-)
Also (cringing time for many here), I test and adjust each reed before letting a student use it Many times a reed that is "unplayable" for a new student isn't necessary too stiff, it's just not balanced or it's full of bumps (see Tom Ridenour's ATG).
B.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-04 17:30
Clarnibass,
Well, I've NEVER had a beginner who couldn't handle a 3 reed after one or two lessons.
Another example of YRMV!
B.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-02-04 17:44
Is this purely an American thing to start beginners on reeds resembling railway sleepers?
The majority of beginners in the UK start on a 1.5 or 2 with a facing such as a Yamaha 4C or 6C - I don't kno of any teachers here who would ever let their beginners struggle with a Vandoren 3 from the word go. A lot of pros play on 3 to 3.5 strength reeds at the most, depending on their mouthpiece.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-05 03:03
MarlboroughMan,
Luis Rossi also plays with VERY soft reeds, as did MY teacher when I was a kid in Cleveland. I did too, up until about ten years ago.
Some posters apparently have it in their heads that, because I start beginners with harder reeds than the myth prescribes, that I'm somehow opposed to anyone at any level playing them. Nowhere did I say that.
The softer the reed, the harder it is to control. Yes, easier to blow. But harder to control.
Good players who are used to them can control them. Beginners, in my experience, can't.
B.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2013-02-05 05:42
My students usually start on a Fobes Debut with Mitchell Lurie 2.5, which offers a nice balance of playability and affordability, and we move up as soon as their chops develop. When they start to pass 3.5, we explore the higher end Vandoren and Rico offerings.
However, since reed strengths vary so widely between brands, I don't think there's any issue here...in my experience a Mitchell Lurie 3.5 is barely stiffer than a Vandoren regular 2.5...
G.
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-05 08:46
I returned to the clarinet 2 years ago, (and Im over 60 ..)on rico 2 GR, after a couple of weeks I went over to 2 1/2 and within a month to 3 (i've now converted to Legere 3 3/4) . I agree with the OP that 3 is minimal strength to get a nice round tone and reach into the altisimo, but I dont quite understand how youngsters can start strait with#3 , Im wondering which MP they play with
Avins
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-02-05 10:40
Ahhhh, this is an important qualification, Bruce. If you'd given us this info up front, I probably wouldn't have posted in the thread. Your OP read as though you were a hard-reed ideologue, while instead youseem to have a theory on control and learning.
I still wouldn't go the way you suggest--in my experience, plenty of beginners do just fine on soft reeds--why impose a rule on them?
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2013-02-05 10:52)
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-05 11:39
I returned to the clarinet 2 years ago, (and Im over 60 ..)on rico 2 GR, after a couple of weeks I went over to 2 1/2 and within a month to 3 (i've now converted to Legere 3 3/4) . I agree with the OP that 3 is minimal strength to get a nice round tone and reach into the altisimo, but I dont quite understand how youngsters can start strait with#3 , Im wondering which MP they play with
Avins
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-02-05 13:13
avins wrote:
"I agree with the OP that 3 is minimal strength to get a nice round tone and reach into the altisimo [...]"
I usually refrain from comment in threads like this, but since I'm already involved...
Here is an example of one of the nicest, roundest tones, reaching well into the altissimo comfortably, on a 2.5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz_fSW5FHeE
If you have the chance to hear Pete Foutain's "Live in Santa Monica 1961" performance of "Tin Roof Blues" you'll get an even better demonstration.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-02-05 13:28
To me, the idea of starting beginners of any age on Vandoren 3s is like doing weight training starting with 50Kg weights or learning to drive and pulling away in 3rd gear or cycling/driving uphill in a high gear. While they may be possible, they are all hard work.
The reason why most beginners in the UK start with soft reeds is to build up the various muscles involved with the embouchure slowly instead of tiring them out too quickly, which is th logical thing to do. If a 1.5 is too soft, then start them on a 2, but no stronger than that.
I've been playing since 1986 and currently play on Vandoren 3s as they're the right strength for me and the mouthpiece facing I use (Vandoren A1). My teacher back in college played on Vandoren 3s as well, and he's perhaps one of the best clarinettists I can think of (even though he's a Buffet player!).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-02-05 13:53
Chris P wrote:
"My teacher back in college played on Vandoren 3s as well, and he's perhaps one of the best clarinettists I can think of (even though he's a Buffet player!)."
LOL--I like the Buffet tag. Every time I'm tempted to become an anti-Buffet bigot, I remember Artie Shaw's last recordings and Eddie Daniels' "Memos from Paradise"...
But if it wasn't for those.........
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-05 16:39
Gonna wrap this up on my end, at least.
Chris P., I haven't experienced the "hard work" that you describe starting students with the harder reeds (3.25s or slight softer) after the initial two or three lessons getting the embouchure and wind established. What I have seen, though, when I used to start them with 2s, was considerable resistance to playing harder reeds when the time came, along with discouragement and disappointment that they couldn't play as easily as before the switch, and most of all, lots of relearning to do.
I also haven't experienced students not being able to play them because of undeveloped facial muscles, even at their first lesson. Few of my beginning students ever go beyond the 20-30 minute daily practice regimen that I ask for for at least the first year, and those who get tired are told not to push it, but to stop for a while when they get tired. The facial muscles develop more quickly this way than giving them little to "push against" for months and months, then jumping on to a higher strength.
MarlboroughMan and Avins, per my original post, all my beginning and intermediate students play with medium lay mouthpieces, usually the Hite "Premier" at first. (I want to try Walter Grabner's "Intermezzo" soon as a mouthpiece for use through the intermediate stage once I'm fairly sure that they want to continue playing.)
MarlboroughMan, why "impose a rule on them?" First, if you're referring to ANY rule, I'm absolutely opposed to the "what works for you" philosophy with students. I don't let students make their own choices until they're fairly advanced because they simply don't know what they're doing, and can develop some awful habits and dependencies if they're allowed to do whatever they want.
If you're referring specifically to reed-strength/medium lay rule, it's because I have found that playing harder reeds on a medium lay is EASIER for students after a couple lessons than continuing to play soft reeds. As I said before, they tend to develop a stable embouchure and better breath support from the beginning. And to reiterate, I've never had a student--even the two 9-year-olds, who couldn't handle a Vandoren 3 on a medium lay mouthpiece from the outset. If I did, I'd back them down in strength, but this just hasn't come up.
For those who might be interested, here's how I came to this practice:
I was playing in a professional orchestra in my early '20s. After about 18 months doing this, I was in an auto accident that damaged the left side of my brain just enough that I couldn't play anymore; the muscles on the right side of my body didn't work well enough to let me continue playing. I went into an occupation that would pay the rent. (I wish I could find the guy in the Blazer who clobbered me that day so I could thank him.)
After 26 years, I thought I try to play again just for my own amusement, but after getting my fingers working, I could not shake the problems I was having with my embouchure because of the difference in muscle action on the two sides of my face. To make a long story short, exercise helped to get the muscles more even and to decrease, but never entirely do away with, the almost imperceptible twitching I'd occasionally have on my right side.
To make a long story not quite so long, one day, after about four years of struggle, I switched from the 2.75 reeds that I'd played on my Portnoy to 3.75s, and I found that, though they took some getting used to, they were much more forgiving of my embouchure unbalance and the small involuntary movements, and I didn't have to work so hard to play evenly until my chops got stable again. I simply found that the harder reed was more forgiving of small changes and less encouraging of conscious and unconscious efforts to "muscle" the reed around, either with the embouchure or the breath. It worked for me, and since then I've been able to develop my embouchure so that I could step DOWN from 4+ to 5s to softer 4s (Rico Reserve Classics).
I tried this with new students and with students who came to me with bad habits. It worked, and still does.
I've only had two failures. Those two were with a student who didn't really want to play in the first place, and was out to show his parents that he "couldn't" play, and a student who insisted that she knew more about the clarinet than her teacher. Other than that, I've developed a reputation in the region for students with great sounds for their levels. Several area school music directors and community group people have told me that they know immediately that a kid is one of my students because they sound so well, and the same comment has come from a few university music school faculty who have auditioned a few of my group. What more could I ask for?
So there you go. There's my litany.
Down the hatch!
B.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-02-05 17:07
bmcgar wrote:
>
> Gonna wrap this up on my end, at least.
>
> MarlboroughMan, why "impose a rule on them?" First, if you're
> referring to ANY rule, I'm absolutely opposed to the "what
> works for you" philosophy with students. I don't let students
> make their own choices until they're fairly advanced because
> they simply don't know what they're doing, and can develop some
> awful habits and dependencies if they're allowed to do whatever
> they want.
>
I know you want to let this thread go, but just for the record, responding situationally to a student's playing ("not imposing a rule") is not necessarily (IMO shouldn't be) synonymous with letting them "do whatever they want." The teacher must, at least with non-advanced students, make the important decisions. But the decisions can be result-driven rather than driven by a blanket rule.
Karl
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-02-05 17:37
...what Karl said.
I'm actually quite in favor of doing "what works for the individual student" but not in favor of "doing whatever the student wants." The two are nowhere near the same thing.
Students can be frustrated for years by blanket rules--especially regarding reeds and mouthpieces. Good luck to you and your students, though.
fwiw, Bruce, it seems we have something in common, having been knocked out of professional ochestras in our 20s due to health problems (in my case it was a set of heart problems). I'm glad it worked out for you--it sure worked out for me too, in that after sugery I was able to return to playing in a way that was more natural to me--with softer reeds and different clarinets (there are different solutions for different people--whether they are young or old, pros or amateurs).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-02-05 19:43
Karl,
I think you misread my response to M-Man, and I could have chosen my words better:
> MarlboroughMan, why "impose a rule on them?" First, if you're
> referring to ANY rule, I'm absolutely opposed to the "what
> works for you" philosophy with students.
I wondered if he meant "ANY" rule, and responded to that possibility.
Also, it appears that some posters think that I'm advocating sticking to "rules" whether they work or not. I don't think I said anything even close to that.
Anyway, if I come across a student who needs special treatment, they'll get it. (Being a counselor by training, I'm not exactly blind to individual differences.) I just haven't had any need for that so far using what I use.
(This begs for a discussion about how truly unique each student is when it comes to learning how to play, but I stirred things up once already this month, so I'll just let that ride, hoping someone else will pick up that gauntlet.)
B.
Post Edited (2013-02-05 21:42)
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Author: avins
Date: 2013-02-06 05:31
bmcgar, thanks for your interesting life story and music
and MarlboroughMan, I liked your expression : "having been knocked out of professional ochestras in our 20s " that makes 3 of us , though, I did this-and I greatly regrette it now - for financial reasons. At least my son continues my dream...
Avins
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-02-06 10:34
"that makes 3 of us "
Glad to know you, Avins. And glad your son is playing--in the end, as Bruce was saying, being knocked out can be a blessing. One of the things that I learned in my ten year beat down was that it wasn't about the applause, the money, the status, or any of those things: in the end, when all of those things were taken away, it was only about music itself. That's not a bad thing to have left.
Anyhow, welcome aboard.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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