 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-26 15:12
Hi everyone,
I've scanned the search function, but didn't exactly find what I was looking for -- so I thought I'd ask for advice.
I sit on the cusp of reed strengths in a couple brands. This wasn't always the case, but it is now. After "breaking in" and adjusting reeds through a gradual process, I frequently have some or many that are simply too light for me to play. As opposed to just playing them a short amount of time and/or just tossing them, I'd prefer to clean them up and pass them off to students in my studio.
What, do you think, would be the best method of disinfecting or cleaning up the reeds to pass them along safely? Hyrdrogen Peroxide?
Thanks in advance,
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-01-26 16:36
Would hydrogen peroxide also be a good way to disinfect mouthpieces? I've been told alcohol is too aggressive. Thank you.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-01-26 17:31
I'm curious about how long the reeds' exposure to hydrogen peroxide needs to be to accomplish the purpose. Is this a quick dip or a soak?
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-26 17:33
No idea. Something I'd read suggested that it was a soak -- the author was talking about how it fizzes up and really breaks up the gunk.
I'm my case, only traces of gunk, so maybe a shorter bath.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-01-26 18:17
I tried the bath approach many years ago on the strength of some big-name player or other's recommendation as a way to revive tired reeds that were near their end. The bubbling was impressive. I found that it did free them up, presumably by de-gunking them, but that the resistance was somehow destroyed in the process. Only my experience on that one occasion (using several reeds), and I've never repeated the experiment.
FWIW, I personally wouldn't give a reed to a student that I'd played on for any longer than the few seconds it took to determine that it was too light for me to use (about the equivalent of my teacher's putting a new reed on my mouthpiece and trying it himself once before handing the instrument back to me). Hence, there wouldn't be any gunk. But erring on the side of safety seems like a good idea, and disinfecting a previously tested reed to give to a student seems reasonable. But I suspect if it takes anything more than a few seconds' dip, it may destroy more than germs.
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-26 18:36
Thanks for the thoughts Karl,
It's wager that neither you nor I are that germaphobic. The generation I'm teaching, however, have come up differently.
I should have mentioned from one of the things I've read that I'm thinking is soaking in a hydrogen peroxide/water mix, as is suggested from the product as a mouthwash.
I understand your concern on the degradation of reed quality.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-01-26 19:05
I have one student who was even nearly unwilling to play on a mouthpiece that I wanted to try because I answered honestly when she asked me if it had ever been played on before (it was basically new and pristine looking - one of several I keep in a drawer for the purpose, but of course I had tested it when I first got it).
(Sigh)My teachers almost never demonstrated on their own instruments (which weren't usually even unpacked during my lessons) - they always took mine, played the passage, then handed the clarinet back to me.
Karl
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-01-26 21:40
Karl, me too. (took mine, played it, handed it back.)
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-01-26 23:57
I routinely soak m/p's in lemon juice to remove any hard gunk build-up, and then in Milton, which is used for sterilizing baby feeding bottles. Works fine. Personally I wouldn't pass reeds on to anybody else, but that's just me. When squeamish germophobes worry about if a mouthpiece has been used before I ask them if they seriously imagine that the cup that they had their last cup of coffee from had been unwrapped especially for them? I tell them there's no difference healthwise between a m/p and a coffee cup. Generally seems to work.
Tony F.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-27 02:19
I'm going to chime in even though I'm not a professional clarinetist. Hydrogen peroxide isn't a good disinfectant it is a cleaning agent. It is a powerful oxidizer (bleaching agent). People used to think it killed bacteria in a wound but what they now realize is that the enzyme peroxydase is breaking down the Hydrogen Peroxide and that is one source of the bubbling (actually slows healing and damages tissue). All living organisms have peroxidases (think bacteria). It is powerful enough to disinfect a non-porous inanimate object. In this day and age and with the understanding that we have about viruses that we previously didn't I wouldn't share reeds. They are too porous. Furthermore, they are mass produced to a very high standard, made from a renewable environmentally friendly source and relatively inexpensive.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-27 02:22
I've tried Hydrogen peroxide to kill fungus of mold growing on a reed (I've never cultured it) and it wasn't terribly effective. It seemed to have shortened the life of the reed anyway and changed the way it played. When I do develop a growth on a reed, I disinfect the reed holder, discard any affected reeds and start over with new reeds.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2013-01-27 20:46
On reeds as well as on mouthpieces I use a spray disinfectant for surgical skin disinfection. The brand I’m using here in Germany contains Ethanol and Propane-2-ol (there are lots of others). It is said to be bactericide, fungicide, tuberculocide and effective against polio-, hepatitis- and other vira (HIV not mentioned). At least it probably won’t damage reeds and hard rubber mouthpieces as perhaps a strong oxydant like Hydrogen peroxyde would. I think you wouldn’t wish your mouthpieces converted into platinum blondes.
( With my early 19th century instruments I’m especially anxious about tuberculosis because so many musicians of that time died from tbc. and I couldn’t find out how long mycobacteria can survive on wind instruments).
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Author: MSK
Date: 2013-01-28 01:13
The hospital where I work uses 10% bleach solution to kill the germs other disinfectants can't touch, and bleach is also recommended for sanitizing wooden kitchen cutting boards which are porous like reeds. Some people use bleach to disinfect drinking water on camping trips, and we've all accidentally drunk it in swimming pools. Note that bleach is supposed to sit for 10 minutes before wiping or rinsing. I don't know if that is long enough to damage the reed or leave a lasting chlorine odor. You'd have to try the experiment. Also be careful of your clothes.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2013-01-28 08:29
Been using alcohol for a couple of years on my mouthpiece and Legere Signature reed with no problems. 91% isopropyl poured straight into the mouthpiece and then dry with a paper towel and dip the reed in the alcohol.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-01-28 13:02
Interesting thread, as I just did this for one of my beginner students!
I guesstimated about 1/3 hydrogen peroxide to 2/3 water solution and swished the reeds around in that for about one minute. Then, I did a similar swish in mouthwash (alcohol-based), with the added benefit of leaving a hint of peppermint taste on the reeds.
Like Karl said, my high school/college teacher also used to grab my horn to demonstrate, then hand it back to me. He was a smoker and faithfully rinsed with mouthwash before a lesson. I really didn't mind the taste of Lavoris on my reed...and I'm still alive today (on my 52nd birthday) to talk about it!
Yeah, the idea of recycling reeds for someone else to play may sound icky but let's face it: babies put everything in their mouths, toddlers eat dirt and Playdough, and we all eat food prepared by others in kitchens that we never see by food handlers whose habits we'll never know. There are worse things we've all put in our mouths than second-hand, sterilzed reeds.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-28 16:30
I appreciate the last poster's sentiment; however, saliva is a known transmission point for viruses and pathogens. Unlike unclean hands on food where bacteria is the concern and most often easily treatable, viruses can last a lifetime. Unlike when we were children, the threat of Hepatitis and HIV as worst case scenerios is alive. What people did when they didn't know better is hard to compare to what they do when the evidence is clear. In this case, ignorance may have been an excuse. I wouldn't allow a child of mine to share reeds with another person, period, and would teach them to say no thank you. Just as I wouldn't share reeds with another. Reeds are cheap. The only recognized sterilization method for blood and body fluids is exposure to 10% bleach for 15 minutes as another poster rightly pointed out. I think that would ruin the reed's usefulness.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-01-28 17:34
Besides the fact that mild soap and water work just fine most germs only live a few days when exposed to the opened air.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-01-28 17:57
bbilings, I respect your point of view.
There WAS a road I wasn't going to go down, however: transmission of bodily fluids. Your kids might not share reeds with other people but I'm guessing they'll gladly kiss others at some point!
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-28 18:05
Ed,
Good point about open air as a disinfectant and that is true of most Viruses. Certainly the ugly bacteria can live for long periods of time (mycobacterium and cocci etc....) but unless you are resurecting an old clarinet like one of the earlier posters it shouldn't be an issue. I take issue with direct sharing of reeds. I also know that saliva can be detected for quite a while after drying. Soap and water do work but it is the actual scrubbing that cleans. The soap micelizes the offending particles and water washes them away. Hard to scrub without damaging the tip as well. Doctors have to scrub hands for greater than 30 seconds under very warm water to disinfect and they use a brush and a combination soap and anti-bacterial product.
Brian
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-28 18:11
I understand the whole kissing argument. In any aspect of our lives we've made a poor choice at some point that has put us in danger (knowingly or unknowingly). As adults, however, we make fewer of those choices (maybe that is too broad of a statement). People forget that Saliva is a bodily fluid capable of transmitting disease and specifically viruses. This whole discussion was about advice and sharing of and or transferring of reeds specifically. Reeds are porous and are difficult to cleanse and almost impossible to sanitize without ruining. That is really the sum total of my opinion. I felt like I was aiding the discussion as I'm well qualified to respond given my background.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-01-28 18:29
A few reactions to the above from the perspective of a biologist:
--Once mold and/or fungus is evident on a reed, the reed is already damaged and there is little point in trying to clean it. The microbial growth is already breaking down the cellulose in the cane and any other gunk that might be accumulated as a food source. That damage cannot be reversed.
--Many bacteria form spores by which means they are able to remain dormant for many years. There is always concern for that sort of infection when opening a burial chamber in Egyptian pyramids, etc. I would need to check references not currently at hand to say for sure if mycobacterium is spore forming, but it may well be.
--As it turns out, 70% isopropanol is a more effective disinfectant than the more expensive 91%.
--The dilution rate of hydrogen peroxide depends on the concentration you start with. The variety you get from the drugstore is a relatively low concentration to begin with. You can get a much higher concentration (to the point that it is hazardous to handle) from lab sources. Hydrogen peroxide is quite unstable (why it comes in a brown bottle) and, over time, breaks down into water and diatomic oxygen. As a result, its concentration decreases with time.
I have no connection with The Doctor's Products, but use mouthpiece cleaner from that source and have been quite pleased with it. Granted, it does take a few minutes to make use of it. So far as disinfecting reeds, I have no adequate method. When I need to play someone else's instrument, my solution is to use my own mouthpiece and reed. This has the added benefit of being able to identify if any problems are from the instrument or the mouthpiece/reed assembly.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-28 19:31
"Because proteins are denatured more quickly in the presence of alcohol" per the CDC. Protein denaturation is the likely bacteriocidal mode of action of alcohol.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2013-01-28 20:39
Brain, I was being serious. I do respect and appreciate what you've brought to the table in this discussion.
No stranger to the potential dangers of saliva: my college-age daughter suffered horribly last semester with mono...and we know exactly where (from whom) she got it.
This board is a font of very useful information, the current thread included. I found it very interesting that the original poster and I had the same thought about reed-sharing with students. What I've read here has given me plenty to contemplate. Excellent feedback!
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-01-28 20:54
It's a very easy error to make, but bbillings miscopied one word in his quote from the CDC. It should read ". . . in the presence of water". The denaturing of proteins typically produces water molecules. That's why, when you fry an egg in a covered pan, you find water on the inside of the cover. Water and isopropanol are infinitely miscible in each other. Googling "isopropanol disinfectant" will give you lots of references.
Interesting fact:
50 ml of water + 50 ml of isopropanol = <100 ml of solution
The molecular polarities and shapes allow them to fit together more efficiently than would otherwise be expected.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-28 21:05
I stand corrected thank you, yes I miscopied. Multitasking isn't always advisable! :-)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-28 21:17
Many interesting thoughts above.
The intent of my limited question really belongs to reeds that have been played less than 2 min (and often only 30 seconds). In general there's a part of me that abhors the waste. IMO -- that's still a new reed.
Given that I play different reeds frequently, and often reeds that my students wouldn't order, the goal is to provide the students and the reeds an opportunity.
Now I just have to find which students play near my strength!
It's always fun to watch discourse take life as the exchange of ideas continues. Thanks again,
James
Gnothi Seauton
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