 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-24 20:44
I've been looking to buy a professional clarinet. I already have one but wanted to try something else as well. I was interested in the Yamaha G series as everyone talks about how wonderful their tuning is and it is definitely a "modern design." When I inquired with several woodwind techs whom I trust, they indepenently asked if I had considered a Buffet and each suggested a "golden era" buffet at that. Very few will even accept work for the Yamaha G clarinets. Apparently, the older Buffets aren't that hard to find in a condition worthy of being restored. Having said that, I keep reading about all the tuning issues and the inconsistancy of manufacture. This makes the process daunting! Bad enough to try to pick from a handful of new versions of the same horn but to blindly attempt to buy a project seems even more difficult. Regardless, a fully functional professional horn isn't an inexpensive investment for me and I'm sure others share my feeling. My ultimate questions are: Why is this era Buffet instrument so revered and How much variance is there from horn to horn in that era? Are these variances correctable by the technician? Looking for insight! Thanks all.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2013-01-24 21:16
New Buffet clarinets usually need adjustments when new from the factory to get them to play their best. This is because a fine clarinet will usually need some hand work. But many people expect perfection from a new instrument and complain. Compared to oboes, flutes, bassoons, etc, and clarinets from small makers, the new Buffets are relatively inexpensive.
You can buy some great vintage Buffets now for not so much. One of Mitchell Lurie's Buffets from 1957 sold for about $1150 on auction recently.
Some of the on line complaints about tuning are from persons who don't know any better. One poster here tried several Buffet Prestige R13s and referred to them as "crap".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-24 21:45
Wes,
I appreciate that. I was reading up on the R13, have only tried a couple of modern ones and thought the key feel was nice. Obviously, different designs have different advantages & disadvantages. People always talk about the "Buffet ring" of the older instruments. I understand there was a change to the register tube placement and the bore in 1969/70, possibly the tone hole size, and C# key had a flat spring. I've heard differing opinions on when that golden era is from different techs, however, and the bulletin board has lots of diffuse information. Just having a hard time with my decision.
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-24 22:13
Do you have a favorite tech that you trust? I'd be disinclined to do anything based on what "different techs" say, unless they're all really skilled and experienced (and if so, where do you live that has such a surplus)? In the end you need to decide based on your budget and your expectations/needs in a clarinet.
What "golden era" are you talking about, by the way? If you're thinking about the 1950s through maybe the 70s, many of those instruments have already had the tuning and other adjustments made - it's how Hans Moennig and others of the time built their shops' clientele. Still, a lot has been improved both mechanically and acoustically since then.
A "vintage" instrument will, unarguably, cost you less than a new one if you can find one in excellent condition.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-24 22:33
Hi Karl,
Thanks for joining the discussion. I live in Phoenix which has zero techs that I trust. So I called one that I do trust and have used and another two that were recommended and are held in equally high regard around the country. Specifically, I was inquiring about having a Yamaha CSG repadded and tuned and returned. Several refused and one accepted the work if I decided to go that direction but even he inquired "why not Buffet?" So I dug a bit further and each gave me a serial number range they preferred for the R13 (all pre 1975) and they all prefer Buffet instruments. Biased, likely. But they would have the familiarity that would aid them. I'm not thinking cost so much as result and sound. Looking for a really great horn and one can sample the current available items but it is very difficult to compare to the past vintages.
Thanks again,
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-24 22:35
Quote:
New Buffet clarinets usually need adjustments when new from the factory to get them to play their best. This is because a fine clarinet will usually need some hand work. But many people expect perfection from a new instrument and complain.
Most of us have a problem with new Buffets because they arrive at the store with multiple leaks and adjustment issues, not because we expect perfection from an instrument that will never have it. There's a big market in "artist overhauls" of Buffets for a reason.
Buffet's are also assembled on an assembly line, by individuals who are not clarinetists. (I welcome correction on that one if others have first hand knowledge to the contrary). The Golden Era Buffet's were all hand assembled and finished.
The Yamaha brand is noted as arriving more consistently in top regulation. I only have experience playing one "new out of the box", and it was and is an excellent clarinet that a student of mine owns.
I have owned a 1967 Buffet R13 that I played with a wonderful sound. It's pitch was not perfect, but it was well within the standard deviation that Buffet's experience. I liked it more than another R13 that I owned from 2001 (which was a fine clarinet in and of itself).
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2013-01-24 23:07)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-24 22:42
Gnothi,
Thanks for joining the discussion! I admit I had an "artist overhaul" of my vintage Selmer. I've grown accustomed and really like the cork uppers, padded lowers and the regulation of the keys. That is what I was looking to have done to the CSG. Most people's opinions lean Buffet however. They seem to cite flexibility and sound. Especially the "ring" of the tone. I just have no experience with the vintage Buffets. I didn't hear a particular "ring" to the couple new ones I tried. Of course, there are slight ergonomic differences. I found them to be minor. Different mouth feel and tone production from mine to the Buffet using the same mouthpiece and reed. Nothing offensive or earth shattering the other direction either between the models.
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-24 23:10
Hi Brian,
I think the majority of the ring that occurs in a person's sound is more attributable to the player, their concept of sound, and their pedagogical background.
Yes -- the instrument has qualities in and of itself. But that which makes my sound mine is the majority of the sound that comes out of any clarinet that I play, Buffet, Ridenour, Rossi, or what have you.
Just my 2 cents,
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2013-01-25 00:47
I'm very biased because I've had a 1960's vintage R-13 for a long time. I've tried dozen of other horns of a variety of brands over the years looking for an improvement -- newer, brand new, other vintage -- and have never found one that I liked better. Many have been very good, but none better in my estimation.
Bottom line -- the tone (including the "ping") is just great, and the intonation (while not perfect) is darn good by all standards. I highly recommend a vintage R-13 for overall quality and value. You can probably find a better horn, but it would be hard to find a better horn for the money.
Just my two cents...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 11:41
James,
I think what you said is true. The sound is your own to develop and every really good player I've heard can play different clarinets and sound good. But at this level of instrument I'm trying to find one that provides as few stumbling blocks to the process as possible. All the instruments I'm evaluating surely are excellently made.
Alan,
I also appreciate your input. I have several considerations to weigh, I prefer new to used usually, I think the wood was better 40 years ago and I am a believer in modern manufacturing techniques and consistancy. With all that said, an artist transcends modern techniques (I always think of Steinway's sound and the way they wrap their hammer heads). Steinway is a good example because only one person does that work by hand. And I can hear the difference. Maybe that is why they talk about Buffet's variability so much? If the right person at the right time built your instrument you received an exceptional one.
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-01-25 12:07
New or used, there is a lot of variation. If you like new, then find a new one that suits your taste.
One thing that Buffet has going for them is that they let vendors come and preselect instruments at their warehouse. Lisa Canning and others go and choose what they think are the best. They will send some for your approval.
Buffet and Yamaha both have locations where you can go and try instruments. Buffet is in Jacksonville and New York. Yamaha has ateliers in LA and New York. I sold a Buffet that a customer picked out in New York. An easy sale!
Sometimes it's hard to switch from something you are used to to something that will ultimately be better.
Steve Ocone
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-25 12:07
Brian -- are you going to be able to play test some Golden Era horns, or are you going to have to take a shot in the dark on that auction site?
Is there anyone who believes that the majority of Buffets from that time period are superior specimens? I'd have an issue with taking a shot in the dark.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 12:46
James,
That is the issue exactly! It would be a shot in the dark. My hope is that the technician makes the difference! My preferred technician put me in touch with a gentleman who finds vintage Buffets as a side business (based on their guidance) and they do the work on them but he hasn't gotten back to me in a timely manner and they are unaffiliated. Given the lack of face to face ability I take communication seriously and this has been lacking. There are no vintage sales in my area other than Craigslist. Frankly, there is only one good music store in Phoenix that I'm aware of and they are far from a woodwind specialist, though qualified. Given that statement, they rarely sell used instruments. In my mind, I don't think I can justify the price of a brand new clarinet. I was looking at a mildly used CSG which is less than half the price of new. I'm just a hobbyist. My max price is $2500 but I prefer to stay below that if possible. If I were to buy a Buffet, everyone seems to lean vintage that I've spoken with.
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 12:51
Steve,
The whole idea of having to select an instrument is a bit disturbing to me. It indicates there are significant differences between instruments within the company. Hopefully, people are truly selling mild differences. No two items are exactly alike at the pinnacle of any endeavor. I've experienced that for myself. Saying that, however, some of the things that are rejected at the pinnacle can actually be better for someone below that. I'm thinking of my personal experience in sport. Sometimes the tools at the pinnacle of performance trade off reliability and stability. Don't know if that applies here.
Thanks,
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-25 13:19
Tobin wrote:
> Buffet's are also assembled on an assembly line, by individuals
> who are not clarinetists. (I welcome correction on that one if
> others have first hand knowledge to the contrary). The Golden
> Era Buffet's were all hand assembled and finished.
>
I suspect Yamahas, Leblancs and Selmers are all assembly line products as well, probably with similar worker requirements. If there's a difference (Yamaha by reputation has always produced a more precise output), it's as likely to be the result of better designed machines on the line and better quality control at the end. But I don't know the factory processes used by any of these major makers, either. And I'm not so sure about the hand assembly in the major factories - Buffet included - 40 and 50 years ago. The major American players were having their Buffet clarinets rebuilt by people like Moennig (sorry, I live in the Philadelphia area - he's the only one I knew growing up) throughout that period and so did many if not all of their students. But then, the price of a top-of-the-line clarinet from Buffet and the other major manufacturers was a fraction of the cost of a Haines flute or a Loree oboe or a Heckel bassoon, which reputedly had a lot of work done by hand at the factory. And you waited months or longer for any of those flutes, oboes and bassoons (and took whatever you got when it came), while clarinetists could go to a good repair shop or a music retailer and (in those days) have a choice of several clarinets off the shelf.
There's an argument for the idea that manufacturing techniques have improved over the past 50 years. Designers have come to the fore who have not just based their work on the designs of the past but have rethought issues of bore shape, tone hole placement and size, pad materials, key design and other things to avoid the problems those instruments had that were played by people like Marcellus, Wright, Lurie, Gigliotti and even the young Drucker. (I 'm sticking to the American market - I know next to nothing about the European woodwind world then or even now). Still, there are older instruments around that - if you're not an adherent of "blow out" as a destructive force exclusive to clarinets - have been through the rebuilding process with their original owners, have had the benefit of modern repair and maintenance techniques, and play very well.
I'm surprised that there are no highly reputed techs in the Phoenix area. Who do the Phoenix Symphony players use? You aren't an unreasonable distance from L.A. if push were to come to shove.
What would it cost to put the Yamaha in top condition? Has anyone given you an estimate?
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 13:42
Karl,
In Phoenix there used to be a place called Desert Winds (Tempe, AZ). Gerry retired due to a heart condition and does some but very little work post transplant. I don't know any of the Phx Symphony players. I have talked with Robert Spring from ASU and he is very pro-Brannen Woodwinds. Has used them forever and suspect most if not all of his students do as well. Another pro player I know sends his horn out of state as well. Milano's Music in Mesa, Az (greater Phx) is the retailer that has survived the influx of the chain stores that I'm aware of but they switch techs. The one tech who was recommended and is willing to take the Yamaha starts at $800, pricey. Already spoke with Yamaha and they supposedly don't take any work in L.A., leave it entirely to their dealer network. If I have to mail it off, anywhere in the country is equally accessible.
With regard to manufacturing, I'm certain things are much more consistent. The argument I always here is that the "artisans" who made them in the past created horns with a different "ring." Could have been the wood?
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-01-25 14:16
To add to what Carl just said, we hear stories about well-known players who have had their clarinets overhauled immediately after purchase but I'm inclined to believe that's more because the clarinet was not exactly what they wanted/were used to rather than that it was "defective." I think it's dangerous to extrapolate from those relatively few anecdotes to a broad conclusion that most, if not all, new clarinets in general (and Buffets in particular) come from the factory needing significant additional work. From what I can tell, all professional Buffets are play-tested before they leave the factory. Some problems may not manifest themselves until later and "contents may settle during shipping" but the clarinetists who go to the distributorship in Florida and hand-select clarinets to resell don't advertise that they are doing significant work on the instruments after they've purchased them and I've known numerous clarinetists who've purchased new Buffets after trying several out, that were quite happy with them the way they came. IMO, buying a clarinet that needs work and then paying extra to have it adjusted is a choice, not a necessity.
If you buy a new clarinet, most of what you spend will go to the seller. If you buy a vintage Buffet, a significant part of the total you spend will go to a repair tech. Do you think that might affect some repair techs' recommendations?
Many highly regarded repair techs are "of a certain age." They have worked on Buffets all their lives. (There are probably more professional Buffets out there than all other makers' professional clarinets combined.) Such techs are comfortable working on Buffets and they know Buffets. Do you think that might affect some repair techs' recommendations?
IMNSHO, a repair tech's unwillingness to work on a professional Yamaha says more about the tech than the instrument. It almost certainly guarantees that s/he doesn't know much about Yamahas. The Brannens will take Yamahas. That's more than good enough recommendation for me.
If you can buy a vintage Buffet that you know can be refurbished into like-new condition before you buy it, you will probably spend less than you would for a new Yamaha CSG. But, here's the problem. It's very unlikely you can know for sure how the clarinet is going to turn out before you buy it unless you can find one that has already just been refurbished. On the other hand, with a new clarinet, you can know exactly what you're getting before you pay for it. Greater cost, less risk. Your choice.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2013-01-25 14:34
Vintage or modern?? Lots of great advice already given--which all comes down to "buy the clarinet that plays best for you". However, if I were a young clarinetist with years of playing ahead of me, I would opt for a "modern" clarinet with the extra lh Eb/Ab lever and the low F & E pitch correction key (not sure what the technical term is). These extra keys just make playing some technically frantic passages a lot easier and that low key corrects a problem that plagues most clarinets--the flat low F & E. Just my two cents worth this snowy AM here in Wisconsin.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 15:32
Jack,
Thanks for the advice! I generally avoid mentioning names, however, I will tell you that the Brannen's refused to work on CSGs. A technical discussion ensued about the differences in the lower tone holes etc.... I have used them and am an established customer, FYI. They have done some in the past but aren't willing at this time. Paul Aviles and I exchanged emails recently about his impressions of the CSGH and he confirmed that he has had the same discussion with Linda.
With regard to the way I spend my money, I'd prefer to support those who I know and/or own small businesses (repair techs are a good example IMO). I've tried to support some of the Bulletin Board sponsors and will tell you some have turned me off with very poor customer service. Well regarded sponsors as well which is shameful. I tried to discuss the purchase of my next clarinet with two separate woodwind shops and haven't had any response after a phone call and follow up email to both. They both requested the email and haven't responded. Its no wonder these chain stores are taking over.
Lastly, trying a handful of clarinets is only an option at ICA or an event like that. I've been to several local stores and have been able to play test (1) R13 at each. Not worth my time as they weren't even a side by side comparison. Which leaves paying for a professional to select. Not my preferred method either honestly.
Those are my thoughts,
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-01-25 16:10
Sorry to hear about the Brannens. Their website says they work on Yamahas. Interesting that the CSG design is something they aren't willing to work on.
I'm not saying that I think repair techs are less worthy of support than sellers. Far from it. What I simply wanted to point out is that there is an inherent conflict of interest in asking someone to recommend between two alternatives when one of the alternatives potentially involves significant financial benefit to the person giving the recommendation. I would like to believe that the (overwhelming) majority of techs are sufficiently professional that self-interest would not enter into their their recommendation. But the potential is there.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 16:34
Jack,
I think Brannen's may work on other Yamaha models. The CSG tone holes were more similar to Oehler clarinets or something like that. They have their reasons none the less. At least Linda has been willing and able to answer my questions! Her preference is vintage Buffet. I agree about financial incentives but will use a repair tech regardless of the model or brand. I prefer cork in the upper joint etc... Just doesn't come that way stock from any manufacturer.
I'm truly sorry about the retailers lack of correspondence. Maybe the NAMM show has gotten in their way. The big retailers here in town are Music and Arts and Sam Ash. Neither stock professional clarinets really and I'd prefer a small business as previously stated. The smaller retailers here are focused on guitars, lessons and rental instruments it seems. I believe the smaller shops are being squeezed out of the new instrument industry as in many industries. The closest woodwind specialty shops are Kessler's in Las Vegas or several in Los Angeles though I'd need a recommendation because I'm not familiar with any there.
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-25 17:21
Brian,
Given your circumstances, I would suggest you contact Lisa Canning (or someone like her). Give her the particulars of what you're looking for, your ideal price, and the qualities that you're most looking for in such a clarinet. Then let her find it for you.
http://www.lisasclarinetshop.com/
Will it cost more than an eBay shot in the dark? Yes. But your chances of getting what you want will be significantly increased.
Does anyone else know of someone like Lisa who selects used as well as new instruments?
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 17:29
James,
I take it you believe there is a significant difference instrument to instrument in vintage Buffets? Enough that a good repair tech can't modify to justify personal selection?
Brian
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-01-25 17:39
I think it's ridiculous that a repair tech thinks he can single-handedly fit an instrument (that you haven't play-selected) to your specifications. Granted -- what you want from your instrument may not be as specific and/or particular as myself or another person.
Can they tailor things a bit? Certainly -- if you know what you want done.
Is the tech a clarinetist of significant ability?
Perhaps Carl, William, and Jack will have something to add from their experience.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-01-25 17:40
An instrument old enough to be "vintage" has had a lot of time to be abused both by careless players and incompetent techs. Some help in the selection process can't hurt. Mike Hammer (http://www.hammerwoodwinds.com/) here in Philadelphia often has used instruments for sale - occasionally trade-ins from top players (including sometimes Philadelphia Orchestra players) who have moved to newer equipment.
Karl
Post Edited (2013-01-25 17:41)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-25 18:03
Most importantly, I want to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. I've found it valuable to bounce these questions off others and have gained some insight into the thoughts of players who are better and more experienced than I. This is exactly what I was hoping to gain from this discussion and it is helping me to form a more clear mental picture of the path that I want to pursue with regard to selecting a used professional instrument! I've read quite a few threads on the bulletin board and am very pleased that this one didn't wander too much away from the original question/intent. Since I'm not a professional, I was wondering if this topic even really applied to me since as James points out I can't be as discerning in my requirements/selection process as someone of his ability. What is most important at my level is how even and in tune the instrument is and that it plays easily and comfortably and blends well with others. I realize that I'm a major component in those factors as well. I likely don't require the ability to color the music as much as a very experienced player. I do, however, want to invest in something that I can continue to grow with. I have asked my instructor his opinion. He is very comfortable with Buffet but admits that he developed his playing on one and the keys just feel right under his fingers because of it. He is by no means an equipment snob so to speak and not prejudiced against any brand. He teaches on a LeBlanc but performs on his Buffet. He also let me know that you can wear out a clarinet and that he has in the past which was good information. Thankfully, he emphasizes playing music!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2013-01-25 21:45
Of the four R13s I've bought new, two were bought by mail, one was from trying a dozen at Buffet and one was NOS, sitting 20 years in a store. All are wonderful, but all had too stiff springs, too high rings, and sticking tenons, all easily fixed. The pads on three were not great, so I replaced them. On some of them, I touched up the E2 and F2 undercutting to raise the pitch. I would not hesitate buying without trying if it looked good and the price was right.
In addition, I have a Buffet 1912 Bb and a 1921 A that are both fine and not "blown out" despite decades of use. Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2013-01-26 14:50
I second the nomination for checking out Lisa's Clarinet Shop. Lisa Canning makes regular trips to the Buffet American facility in Jacksonville, FL to select clarinets for resale at her business. She has an uncanny (no pun intended) ability to select Buffet clarinets--soprano through bass--that are a cut above the average. I know this to be true as a satisfied former customer having purchased multiple fine instruments from her old, now closed, business in Evanston, IL She offers the same fine clarinet selection service via her new store at: http://www.lisasclarinetshop.com/ Some of the world's finest clarinetists trust Lisa to find clarinets for them, one of them is Gregory Smith, clarinetist extrodinare of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
If I ever buy another clarinet, it will be from Lisa. My two cents worth this am.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-01-26 15:02
Think of everything that together makes a clarinet: the wood, the machining, tone hole, location, size, undercut, the mechanism as random drawn from a "bell curve."
The bell curve should be:
Centered at exactly the right place , and
Narrow enough so that EVERY piece made is "good enough."
That way, the finished product is "good" right off the end of the assembly line.
I don't think that many instrument makers have the production systems that make this "Six-Sigma" process work, and that the resulting hodge-podge assembly of random pieces, and holes can be expected to produce a fine clarinet. I think that your Add $500 to the purchase price of a Buffet pays for correcting some of the things that are "out of tolerance" in a sloppy product. That work can balance the mechanism, seal the pads and even fiddle with tone holes; but it can't do some of the hard things like narrowing the bore here and there.
So, I would agree that some random quantity of clarinets are fatally flawed and uncorrectable. It seems, for example, that when buying a new Buffet, the challenge is to identify the one in a dozen or so that can be "corrected" to bring it close to its intended design. I was unfortunate enough to end up with one of those Buffet R13 A clarinets that had had the upper reamer run too far into the top of the upper joint, forever condemning it to a sharp left hand clarion register.
Deming took the concept of assembling quality products from pieces with centered and narrow distributions of to Japan when USA manufacturers measured their processes by production speed.
My guess is that Yamahas are simply more precisely built than their European competitors.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-01-26 19:01
I'm exactly in the position. I'm constantly comparing my mid 80's R-13 (is this considered vintage?) to my 2008 CSV Yamana. There are things I prefer about my Yamaha (like the keywork and the pitch and the likelyhood that I will be able to hit any particular note without a grunt or a wiggle or a squeak.) There are things I prefer about the Buffet, like the tone quality, richne ss, warmth. The Yamaha excells in dependability, keywork and the likelyhood that I can do a difficult passage without a squeak or a grunt. The Buffet has had a partial overhaul by Wesley Rice and the Yamaha has needed nothing other than an key oiling and a thumb rest relocation (which I did myself). If I had to own only one instrument it would be the Yamaha which I feel would help me more as a student. If I were a much better professional player I think I might prefer the Buffet as I feel a pro can work around inherint problems with his greater experience.
For me the cost issue is interesting. The Buffet was $900 in playable condition but I must have spent over $300 doing various things such as the overhaul and I also had to superglue a crack in the barrel. The Yamaha was $1100 in nearly new condition but I haven't invested a penny and don't feel this instrument will need anything for another year or two. I can easily see someone buying an older R-13 and then spending 4 or $500 doing an artist overhaul. My Yamaha is only a CSV and not a G series which everyone is so crazy about but I instantly see why these instruments are considered such fine and well made instruments.
My advice is to try a new Yamaha and see if this is what you want. My Yamaha is a bit too bright for my taste at times. Try a well restored Buffet so you can find out if they even appeal to you because the best of Buffets have their own problems. Chances are that your R-13 will never be much better than a welll loved and cared for vintage Buffet and then you can decide from there.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-27 02:05
Here is my update for the day:
I took a 4+ hour car ride to and from Tucson to a very helpful dealer, "Instrumental Music." Richard Sullivan, the manager, gets 2 thumbs up from me. They had several clarinets for me to try side by side with my own. Mine is a Selmer 10 from 1970 that just came back from Brannen's after a bi-annual service. I also tried a YCL-650, YCL-CSGHII and a Buffet R13. First off, I'm glad I had an opportunity to try them side by side with a co-conspirator in tow. The CSGHII was disappointing, its tone was a bit brighter (my friend thought it was "less smooth") than the others and it wasn't in adjustment so one of the left pinky keys was sticky. Either way the rest of the notes weren't that great for me either tonally. Third was mine which sounds a bit buzzy now that it came back from service and didn't have the buzz before service so I'm not pleased about that. I"m used to the key work and find it comfortable. Certainly, the key heights and light set up is nice. Second was the YCL-650 (the easiest to play loudly) which had nearly as focused a sound as the Buffet (I thought darker and still powerful) which was first (my friend thought it was "smoother"). I used my own mouthpiece and reed combo on all the above, a Pyne Sinfonia and even swapped out the barrel on the Buffet with my Pyne barrel. As it stands, I would buy a new R13 from the few that I've tried. I'd be interested in trying a YCL-SEV and wish I'd had more mouthpieces and reed strengths with me when I tried the CSG. I think the CSG would benefit from a longer barrel.
Post Edited (2013-01-31 22:08)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-01-31 21:21
After all of the assistance, I found an instrument that I couldn't refuse. It was sight unseen and sound unheard but I felt it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I purchased a 1969 Buffet R13 that was new old stock. Still in the plastic and still in the box from Carl Fischer. I can get a modern clarinet if this isn't as good as I hope but at half the cost of new retail I couldn't refuse. It arrived today and is everything it was advertised to be. The tenon rings are still firmly in place and the pads may still be good. I'm letting the clarinet breath and acclimate to the Arizona environment and I'm going to call and speak to Linda Brannen about any recommendations regarding break in or wood care that may need to be done before I test how the pads seal or start playing it. I read the article on the BB from Peter Spriggs already and that was good advice as well. Thanks again everybody!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-04 00:26
I have a Hans Moening Puchner bassoon he adjusted in 1967. We were there all day including his nap time. Quit an unforgetable experience
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-04 03:27
Well, he was a magician, and at the time I was a student he was for all I knew (and by reputation) one of a kind. I think now it's much easier to find quality work without travelling cross-country.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-04 04:00
Actually I disagree with the idea that it is easy to find fine repair work. It is not just a matter of finding someone who knows what they are doing. They also have to be an artisan about it.
Jonathan Anderson used to be a 15 minute drive for me. He has moved three hours away. I now will drive three hours for my next repair.
.............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-01-04 05:42
Buffet has recently issued a second version of its Tradition model clarinet. As a result, you will find the first version for sale now on the famous website and in other places at very reasonable prices (that is from $2,400 to $3,100). The Tradition model in both versions has very good tuning, probably better than most of the golden age Buffet models. Like all modern Buffet clarinets, it will need to be set up by a competent tech. If you have a chance to try one of these on trial, you might like what you hear. (Or you might prefer to keep what you already have or still search for the golden vintage model).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-01-04 17:43
Like minds agree apparently. For some time now I have been pondering getting a recent instrument - one of my favorite vintage ones had a sudden problem and made me realize that I should be prepared for the worst (not to mention that little imp that lives in the back of my mind, always egging me on to to take a peak at the offers "oh look ! you don't have that, and it's a bargin!"). That, and benefiting from recent advances might also be a help. The Tradition has had consistently good reviews, the sound appeals to me as do the descriptions of its playing behavior and suddenly, there it is on the used market for the first time and at a very reasonable price. I have also noticed a few Toscas and a recent RC Prestige but I'm going for the Tradition if I can close the deal, and of course if the instrument performs as I hope. Luckily I've just sold my (very nice) student horn so I get to keep my vintage Buffet, best of both worlds.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-01-04 18:35
Djudy: my theory is that the quality of wood has gone from bad to worse over the last 30 years (trees chopped down when they're too young; unnatural drying). That makes the old instruments-provided they aren't "blown out") better, though less well in tune. ps: lathing the bores in just one operation also puts ugly stress on the wood. Things would be better if they did the lathing process in 3 different operations. But time is money..
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
