 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-15 21:56
Can anyone suggest any other pro clarinets besides the Buffet R-13? I am thinking about buying a pro clarinet and want some idea of brand to look for.
deejay
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-15 22:12
I love Leblancs. I have an Opus and a Symphonie VII and a LL. I sold my Buffet R-13 Prestige because I really hated the tuning pain in the altisimo. The Opus has a powerful tone and is SO much easier to play. Nice dark, rich tone. The Symphonie VII is the rosewood model with the same acoustics as the Opus but a sweeter tone. The LL is a bigger bore model, but has a really big full tone as well.
I've tried some Selmers lately and some of them are really nice, too.
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Author: Doug P
Date: 2001-03-15 22:27
I second Brenda's advice. I own an Opus and I love it. I haven't tried the Selmer Signature simply because I'm afraid I might love it even more! (BTW, the Leblanc Concerto is the same as the Opus but without the aux Eb key, and is a bit cheaper) If you are interested in a new Opus, you can drop me a note and I'll send you some places to look.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-03-15 22:38
The Big Four (Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha, and Buffet) all make *several* models of pro grade horns. I suggest you get catalogs from the major mail order dealers such as International Music or Woodwind and Brasswind and study them.
Then of course there are the smaller and specialty makers. Howarth, Patricola, Rossi, Peter Eaton.
Try out as many as you can and then start narrowing the field.
My own preference is Leblanc but that doesn't mean they would suit you.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-16 02:09
Who make Opus, Leblancs? I was thinking about getting a Leblanc, but I don't have any idea of what models and such.
deejay
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-16 02:33
Leblanc's top of the line models are the Opus and the Symphonie VII. The Concerto is not the same clarinet as the Opus, although it is a Leblanc. The Concerto is a good clarinet, but it doesn't have the same powerful tone quality as the Opus (I've owned them both). The Concerto has the same bore size as the Opus and is missing the aux key--but it doesn't sound anything like the Opus. In fact--nothing sounds like the Opus.
As for the Selmer Signature, I've tried out 3 of them and all three were sub-Opus. I found them all to be "stuffy" although the key action was wonderful and they were beautiful to behold. The tone was not nearly as powerful as the Opus, nor was it as dark and lyrical. There are some nice things that have been done with the Signature--and it is cheaper than the Opus--but if you had the opportunity to play both the Opus would win hands down.
You might give International Musical Suppliers a call (1-800-762-1116). The owner of the company is a clarinetist and she hand selects the clarinets. I bought a Symphonie VII and an Opus from her and was very pleased. Her prices are about half of retail and they're great to work with.
If you're interested in a Selmer, I would try the Recital or the Series 10S II. They have a better tone than the Signature.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-16 04:17
Brenda Siewert wrote:
>
> Leblanc's top of the line models are the Opus and the
> Symphonie VII. The Concerto is not the same clarinet as the
> Opus, although it is a Leblanc
Leblanc claims it is the same clarinet ("acoustically identical") and some Leblanc reps will also tell you it's the same clarinet.
There's enough variance clarinet to clarinet to make some outshine the others.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-03-16 04:45
Yes, Leblanc says the Concerto is the same horn as the Opus minus the left hand Eb/Ab key. But I'm curious as to why the big difference in price. My WW/BW catalogue lists the Opus at $3195.00 and the Concerto at $2249.00. A difference of $946.00. That seems like alot of money for one key.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-16 11:40
It is also interesting that the Leblanc web page description states:
"Despite its identical acoustic design, the Concerto tends to produce a tone that is more flexible and lyrical than the Opus."
I wonder what makes this possible.
I also see that there is a new Opus, i.e., the Opus II. From the description, it reads like the ultimate Opus.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-16 12:34
Bill wrote:
>
> It is also interesting that the Leblanc web page
> description states:
>
> "Despite its identical acoustic design, the Concerto tends to
> produce a tone that is more flexible and lyrical than the Opus."
>
> I wonder what makes this possible.
Advertising hype makes this possible; it also makes possible the enormous price differential. What does "a tone that is more flexible and lyrical than the Opus" mean? How was it quantified? By who? Or is this the result of picking up words at random from a bin and using them in advertising?
Brochures and catalogs are not printed to <i>discourage</i> us from buying things ...
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-16 14:26
Since we're pretty much agreed that although some sources say the Opus and the Concerto are the same except for the extra key--those of us who have played these instruments and have access to them on a daily basis will tell you there is a difference in their tone and response. The Leblanc brouchure (which took months for me to get from their website) says this about the Concerto:
"The Concerto 1189SL model offers the Concerto acoustic design...." Although the bore of the Concerto and the Opus are the same, the acoustic design is different. The Opus and the Symphonie VII have the same acoustic design, but differ in sound because of the wood difference.
If you get an opportunity to play an Opus and a Concerto side by side, you'll notice an immediate and unmistakable difference that isn't just a "quirk" of the specific instrument. The Concerto is a wonderful clarinet and I would prefer it over the Buffet R-13 any day. It would make a great instrument for years and years to come and I don't think you would regret your purchase. But, if you could find a good used or demo model Opus for about the same price as the Concerto--I'd go for the Opus.
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Author: Ed Wojtowicz
Date: 2001-03-16 15:47
as to the pro clarinet choices, I feel that there is a lot of personal preference involved. Play what feels good and works well for you. Brenda's comments are interesting regarding the Signature vs. the Opus are interesting, but then again Riccardo Morales changed from the Opus to the Signature. Tom Ridenour, (formerly clarinet and mouthpiece designer at Leblanc) has raved about the Signature. Check the web site for Selmer for more info. Should any of this make you buy one over another? Heck no, play whatever gets you as close to your concept with the most comfort. All of the makers are making some great horns.
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Author: graham
Date: 2001-03-16 17:12
In the UK, at least, an advertisement that made a blatantly baseless claim would be banned by the Advertising Standards Authority.
Leblanc seem to be saying there is a difference which is down to the quality of the material used in manufacture. There have been several postings on this board from those who believe that all materials of sufficient rigidity are acoustically identical. If that is the case then Leblanc must be wrong in their assertions. I once attended a lecture by James Campbell in which he said (and demonstrated) that the quality of the wood was a significant factor. Geoffrey Acton, formerely a maker in Boosey & Hawkes also said so. The person who makes the mouthpieces i use says so about materials the physical properties of which are pretty similar. It seems to me that the makers do believe this to be true.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-16 18:55
Ed mentions Tom Ridenour's comments about the Selmer Signature (go to Selmer's website and you can read Tom's article about the Signature www.selmer.com). He is very favorable about it. I agree it's a great clarinet, just not what I was looking for--and certainly not so much better than my Opus that I would switch. But, if memory serves me right, Tom Ridenour is the designer of the Concerto back when he worked for Leblanc. Now he's at Brook Mays Music in Dallas, Tx and is accessible to inquiries about clarinets.
Ricardo Morales is the one who helped Leblanc with the rosewood Symphonie VII and probably (like most pros) plays several brands and although he's endorsing the Leblanc Symphonie VII, he uses whatever best suits his needs.
I just purchased a Selmer 10S II, and Ed Riley (of Selmer) tells me Tom Ridenour really thinks quite highly of that particular model. Also, the 10G. And, if I didn't want to spend the extra bucks for the Signature I would look into those. Right now there are some great buys on those (I got mine for a tremendous price reduction).
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-16 18:58
Brenda, How much did your Symphonie VII and Opus cost?
I know last year or the year before I seen a music store about their pro clarinet and they showed me one that was really nice and I think it was 500. How can you tell if one is? I don't remember the brand or model of it, but it wasn't one of the 4 brands.
Do all pro clarinets have adjustable thumb rests?
deejay
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-16 19:15
I also have another question. Am I able to play and try each model out?
deejay
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-03-16 20:17
deejay wrote:
>
> Brenda, How much did your Symphonie VII and Opus cost?
> I know last year or the year before I seen a music store about
> their pro clarinet and they showed me one that was really nice
> and I think it was 500. How can you tell if one is? I don't
> remember the brand or model of it, but it wasn't one of the 4
> brands.
>
> Do all pro clarinets have adjustable thumb rests?
>
> deejay
No, many pro clarinets do not have adjustable thumb rests. Until relatively recently (say the last decade), it was virtually unheard of.
It isn't really possible to tell whether an instrument is a pro model or not just by looking at it. You have to find some one who is familiar with the specific make and model who can tell you. For example some student clarinets have bell rings and some do not. Some pro horns have bell rings and some do not. Same goes for just about any feature you can name (isn't some one now producing a student clarinet that comes with an adjustable thumbrest too?).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-16 20:20
Deejay,
I can't think what pro model would sell for $500.00, unless it was a used one. You might be able to find a good used Leblanc on eBay for around $500.00. The music store will be your best bet to be able to try out an instrument. Or, if you could find someone who has one for sale and would let you come play it (if the person is local) you might be able to test it. If you purchase from International Musical Suppliers or Woodwind and Brasswind, you have to put the purchase on your credit card to get it on approval--but they do send out clarinets on approval.
As for the price of a new Opus, I buy for near to dealer's cost because I buy and sell clarinets to players all the time and have sold quite a few this year. My cost on a new Opus is right around $3,000.00. The Symphonie VII is a bit higher. I would recommend eBay and a good used instrument. Or, the classifieds here on Sneezy.org for one that a pro player might have for sale.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-16 23:08
Riccardo also played (plays?) a Buffet Festival Greenline, along with the Buffet Basset Clarinet.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-17 01:02
Bill, the Opus on eBay is coming from the Netherlands. I wonder if their reserve is in Guilders? It looks like it's written with a comma after the number. If so, it's going to be more expensive than the buyer thinks.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-17 01:06
wow, I like the Opus one on ebay. What model of Yamahas are pro models?
deejay
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-17 10:15
Author: Brenda Siewert:
Bill, the Opus on eBay is coming from the Netherlands. I wonder if their reserve is in Guilders? It looks like it's written with a comma after the number. If so, it's going to be more expensive than the buyer thinks.
----------------------------------------
Brenda: I checked the currency conversion, and 2,300 guilders is $936 US dollars. Also, I looked at some of their completed auctions, and the winning bid matches the stated reserve. Maybe they're counting on a bidding "war", albeit small, to get a higher price.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-17 12:45
I checked Matthew's Music web site, and their regular price for an Opus is $2,495 US dollars, so no need to go crazy with the one on eBay which I'm bidding on. Actually, I think I'll wait to play test one, before buying. I did like the Concerto, which I did try, a lot.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-17 13:27
I hesitate to buy stuff from overseas dealers because of the hassle of a possible return. I've been stuck with having to spend big bucks on instruments before and it isn't worth it.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-17 14:42
There's also the matter of customs, which may or may not jack the price up higher. Be careful!
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-17 21:05
Which would be better, buying a new pro clarinet or a used one, but I really good condition???
deejay
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-17 21:05
Which would be better, buying a new pro clarinet or a used one, but in really good condition???
deejay
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-03-17 23:33
If I had the choice, I'd go for a much older used one. The wood would be a much higher quality.
I have a 18 year old Buffet R-13 that I bought used for $400. I've been told that the wood it's made out of is much better than the wood the manufacturers are currently using on their top-end line.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-18 03:12
What year did they start making the Buffet R-13? Are they much diffrence between older R-13 and the ones today?
deejay
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-18 03:24
Do the older clarinets have R-13 on them? What model is the one at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1416966518 ?
deejay
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-18 03:36
deejay - that's an Evette, not an R13. R13s started being available in the 1954/55 time period.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-18 10:16
Author: deejay asked:
Are Selmer Omegas pro or not?
-----------------------
There is a USA Omega and a Paris Omega. The Paris Omega is the better model.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-18 14:21
The Paris Omega is a very nice instrument, but you'll have to decide whether or not you want a Buffet R-13 because they're about the same price. Be sure you don't buy the USA Omega because they're not the same instrument.
You can look up the Selmer Omega by going to Selmer's website at www.selmer.com and looking at the Prologue's specs. The Paris Omega is identical. The Omega isn't sold through mail order catalogs or discount stores (although some stores will discount the Omega). It has a great big gorgeous tone and is very nice to play. I recommend them all the time.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-18 15:43
How are Paris Omegas diffrent from Buffet R-13?
Would buy a Paris Omega and play it?
deejay
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-03-18 16:06
Author: deejay wrote:
How are Paris Omegas diffrent from Buffet R-13?
Would buy a Paris Omega and play it?
------------------------
Last year, when I was looking for an R-13, I contacted Tom Ridenour. He highly recommended the Paris Omega instead of the R-13, based on my playing interests. He said that the Paris Omega is an excellent clarinet, easier to "control" than the R-13, etc. It was priced about the same of the R-13 he was selling via Brook Mays. Brenda indicated that the Selmer Prologue (II ?) is equivalent to the Paris Omega, and you can get it for less than an R-13, e.g., $1,295 from wwandbw. I tried a Prologue II, and it was indeed nice, but not the same as an R-13 - not better or worse - just different as are other makes/models.
So, you really must try them for yourself.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-18 20:49
Ditto on what Bill is saying about the Omega. It has a "killer" tone and would be excellent for an advancing clarinetist. I've heard Tom Ridenour recommends them, and his company sells them. I think their tone is better than the R-13 (certainly more powerful) and they seem a good, tough instrument--not quirky to play like the R-13 can be.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-18 23:13
I have a Selmer Special right now, but want a pro or more of step up. Omega would be a step up from the Special right?
deejay
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-19 02:06
According to Francois Kloc of Buffet-Crampon:
"Like Dee said Buffet started the production of the R13 in the 50' exactly in 1955. Robert Carre was the accoustician designer who came with the idea of Poly cylindrical bore for the Clarinet and they decide to not mark them with R13 on the body since that was no other bore design after the R13 until they design the Continentale model. Before 1955 that was no R13."
There was a Buffet that was imported and re-sold by Carl Fisher of New York prior to the polycylindical R13 that we know - and Carl Fisher labelled it the R13.
The serial number of the 1st R13 isn't known - the books with ther serial numbers of this exact time are lost.
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Author: deejay
Date: 2001-03-19 02:15
For the older R13s, how can you tell they are? Do they have R13 on them or something?
deejay
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-19 02:28
R13 was never printed on the body. All you can do is estimate the year based on the serial number.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-19 14:45
deejay asked<<I have a Selmer Special right now, but want a pro or more of step up. Omega would be a step up from the Special right?>>
Yes, the Omega would be a step up from the Special. The Omega and the Prologue II are the entry level professional clarinets from Selmer. I recommend checking out their website at www.selmer.com and then click onto the Paris model professional clarinets. That'll tell you more about them. You can send an email to Ed Riley or one of the people at Selmer and they get right back with you on your specific questions about their stuff.
Woodwind and Brasswind (www.wwandbw.com) will give you quotes on their prices on all their new professional models. They're probably the lowest prices online (or through their catalog) and are good to work with.
Take your time while shopping for a new pro instrument. Also, keep looking on eBay, sometimes someone sells a new or almost new instrument. Just make sure they're a reputable seller with lots of positive feedback and id verify and stuff like that. Another thing to do with an ebay seller is to send them an email and ask questions about their product. If they reply within a day or so and answer your questions to your satisfaction, that's a plus. With an instrument I always ask if they offer a money-back guarantee. If they don't, I don't buy it unless I'm willing to shell out the money to get a repair or adjustment.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2001-03-19 16:43
Why is it that I don't see the Omega in the Selmer Paris series PDF? The Prologue II is there. I go to www.selmer.com and fork from there.
Matt
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-19 16:48
I had the same question, so I asked Ed Riley (moderator of the selmer clarinet bulletin board) and he sent me the specifics. He told me they were identical to the Prologue II and they were working on getting more information out about the Omega. Right now they're not available from mail order or discount music stores, just the mainline retail Selmer dealers.
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Author: mmatisoff
Date: 2016-03-29 23:04
Does the Opus have a particular "part number" associated with it? For example, someone referred to the Concerto 1189SL model number. Just wondering. I'm trying to learn everything I can about Leblanc and Leblanc clarinets. I enjoy everything "clarinet." Also, do any current professional musicians play the Opus? I'd like to compare how different musicians and their instruments sound when playing the same composition. Thx all.
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