 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-01-02 16:58
In a recent thread I observed that some of my reeds are bowed after playing and drying overnight, and that some come that way out of the box (see the last few posts of the following: Bad Reed?
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=381093&t=381093 )
In summary, some reeds (e.g., Rico Reserve Classics out of the box), when placed on a flat plate, flat side down, are slightly high in the middle, actually lifting off the plate in the center. I should have realized this sooner, since I have been noticing that sometimes 1) My played reed ( and mouthpiece table) will be noticeably wet on the top third to half, and 2) after sanding some reeds the surface near the tale has been sanded noticeably more than the center section of the reed. 3) Finally, when a Rico Reserve Classic needs to be adjusted due to warping, it has to be more aggressively sanded than other reeds to get noticeable results. That makes sense now, since the bowing is preventing the middle from being sanded until a significant amount is sanded off the end. (Note that the pressure exerted on the reed during sanding partially compensates bow.)
So I have the following observations, or perhaps better, suppositions:
It would probably be preferable not to slide the ligature down as far as possible (as advocated by some) on a bowed reed, since it would leave a greater Gap between upper center of the reed and the table.(But note Karl's comment in the Bad Reed? thread about some French mouthpieces being designed with a curve, deliberately creating such a gap.)
Second, a bowed reed requires a different sanding technique, otherwise one might take more off the tip and tale than intended. I usually only sand my reeds below the vamp to avoid tip sanding (by hanging the reed over the edge of the sandpaper), yet I still get excessive sanding on the tale. I will now also try placing my flat sanding plate at the edge of a surface, so that when I sand the bottom half the top portion is hanging over the edge (suspended in air, if you will). In this way the tip of the reed will not continue to hold up the middle, and the middle will lay flat on the paper and be more consistently sanded with the end.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-01-03 16:59)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-01-02 19:26
Laurie, a couple of comments:
LJBraaten wrote:
> ...I have the following observations, or perhaps better,
> suppositions:
>
> It would probably be preferable not to slide the ligature down
> as far as possible (as advocated by some) on a bowed reed,
> since it would leave a greater Gap between upper center of the
> reed and the table.(But note Karl's comment in the Bad Reed?
> thread about some French mouthpieces being designed with a
> curve, deliberately creating such a gap.)
Sliding the ligature down "as far as possible" is not, as you observe, a universal recommendation. There are lines inscribed on most mouthpieces to indicate where the ligature should be placed (absent any specific reason to the contrary). In the cases of mouthpieces with "resistance curves" designed into the table, using those lines as reference should ensure that any ligature pressure is actually aligned with the concave area.
The critical area of contact between the reed and the table is at the bottom of the window. It's there that the reed needs to seat against the the mouthpiece completely from one side to the other. If that seal exists, it doesn't make too much difference where gaps may be farther down - water and, more important, air can't pass that line if the reed sits flat against the table at the bottom of the window.
In theory, the concave curve in the table is meant to provide extra vibration by forcing the vamp area of the reed to angle slightly away from the side and tip rails. I've never really had a chance to play two otherwise identical facings one with a curve and one without, so for me this remains a theory. All of my mouthpieces have concave curves in their tables. I have to confess, I have trouble imagining that a lightly tightened ligature can rally exert enough pressure to force the reed, which at that point is anywhere from 2.5 mm to 3.5+ mm thick, into the curve, especially if the screw tension is sideways, as it is on many ligatures. But then I can't really envision how energy waves get from a radio tower tens of miles away (and out of my sight line) to my phone or radio. They do, and I enjoy the benefit!
> Second, a bowed reed requires a different sanding technique,
> otherwise one might take more off the tip and tale than
> intended. ... I will now also try placing my flat sanding plate at the edge of
> a surface, so that when I sand the bottom half the top portion
> is hanging over the edge (suspended in air, if you will).
I think I asked in the other thread - what bad effect of this bowing on the reeds' response are you trying to overcome? I admit here that I've never been a huge fan of sanding the back of a commercial reed in general. Sanding a handmade reed may be useful to seal the surface, but commercial reeds are already at a critical thickness and I've rarely had any success in repairing a warped reed (whether warped longitudinally or the kind of lateral bow you're describing) by sanding the back flat. So, if a reed doesn't pass the "seal test" (close the mouthpiece tenon off and suck the air out through the blowing end to see if a suction results and how long it lasts) I generally just chuck it and use another reed. Life is too short! But even testing in this way is usually the result of some response problem I'm having with the reed in question. If the reed plays well, it can be as warped as can be and I'll probably never even know. What are these bowed reeds doing or not doing that has raised your concern?
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-01-02 19:54
It's very common for larger clarinet reeds (bass and lower) to warp on the bottom (nominally flat) side, generally into a convex shape such that the sides of the reed lift away from the mouthpiece rail. I can tell immediately when this has happened because the reed will be very tiring to play (as my embouchure is automatically compensating for the warpage by tightening up around the reed and mouthpiece). In severe cases there is an audible leak or hissing.
Since I expect this to happen, I buy reeds 1/2 to 1 strength harder than the desired final stiffness, and incremently scrape the bottoms flat as I'm breaking in the reeds over a period of a week or so.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-01-02 20:28
Storing the reeds after use on glass or in a purpose made reed holder will significantly reduce the amount of warping / bowing.
Some advocate letting the reed dry upside does also help.
I tend to combine both approaches by
1. Wiping all excess moisture from reed with fingers after playing
2. Leaving reed to dry upside down for a period
3. Then storing reed in a reed case or on glass.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-01-02 23:48
One theoretical solution is only soaking the tip of the reed. During performance however the moisture does travel down the reed. Do you soak the entire reed?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2013-01-03 18:24
Thanks for the thoughtful posts, I will try to respond to most of them.
First, the drying of reeds upside overnight was suggested by Karl in the other post, as well as drying in a Gonzales case (or on the mouthpiece) which holds the reed flat after rehearsals/concerts. I tried drying reeds overnight, and noted the next day I had some very bowed reeds. When Karl noted that he almost never has problems with warped reeds, I concluded that I must be getting mine too wet (not mentioned until now). So I went from immersing the vamps, to soaking the tips, to briefly dunking the tips, to omitting the ritual altogether (although I no longer baptize my reeds, I still occasionally circumcise them). I am now getting better playing results, they are less soggy, play longer at one setting, and I am seeing less bowing (at least on the one reed that I have tried this with). I am hoping that this will solve most of my warping and bowing problems, but as already noted, some reeds come bowed out of the box, and may need attention.
Karl, when my reeds don't play well and fail the suction test I try to fix them. Heck, I'm retired, have the time, and I can't play the clarinet 24/7 so I might as well tinker. The results I'm trying to achieve? to get an unplayable reed to a playable state. Some of my best reeds have been redeemed from a nearly unplayable state. A bowed reed can cause two problems which render them unplayable: One, if the reed needs sanding due to warping, traditional sanding techniques are inadequate, since so much has to be sanded that one has a reed with a thin tail (and tip). This also results in a much thinner sound, so they might be good for practice reeds, but not rehearsal or concert. In some cases such aggressive sanding ruins the reed. Second, if a reed is significantly bowed (even if not warped), it may fail the suction test, since it might not contact the upper portion of the table of the mouthpiece (unless one has a very long window). I have observed this, wetness on the top third of the table, but dry below. So again, the only way I see to adequately address the problem is to modify the sanding technique, as described in the beginning of the thread. Of course if you don't want to bother with them and throw them out, then none of this is useful (If I send you a SASE would you mail your discards to me  ).
[OT: Somewhat related, I have recently found a way to tell if the reed has some uneven or warped spots. After sanding it lightly on 600 grit paper, I polish on the back. I then hold it up so that the light shines on it. Shinny spots are high, dull spots are low. ]
I almost always find something that needs adjusting on a reed, so I have also started buying reeds 1/4 to 1/2 harder with the notion that I will adjust them down to a lesser size. Besides, sometimes the 3 and 3.5 Mitchell Luries seem to soften too quickly and "mush up" on me. But my hope is that most of these problems will disappear now that I am using unimmersed reeds.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2013-01-03 19:40)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-01-03 20:48
FWIW, I dip the reed in a 35mm film holder filled with water about 3/4 of the way up for a few seconds, then massage the tip flat if it isn't already (older reeds tend to crinkle until the moisture is evenly distributed), blot off remaining puddles, and play on it. No prolonged soaking, but the reed is thoroughly moist.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2013-01-03 21:25
A quite common practice amongst clarinet players is to bend the reed slightly away from the mouthpiece using a thin plastic card (Japanese telephone cards used to be good -- or you can use another reed) inserted between the reed and mouthpiece, if the reed begins to feel too close for playing comfort and flexibility.
A more determined action is to bend or even twist the whole reed, off the mouthpiece; and I've sometimes done that to good effect with a warped reed. It settles back, of course with playing; but that's usually good, because it doesn't quite go back to where it was.
Doubtless someone will tell me that I'm not spozed to do that:-)
Tony
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