 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TonySwe
Date: 2012-12-20 10:55
Hi!
My name is Tony, and I'm new here. I started learning how to play the clarinet some 15 years ago, but quit after a few months. Now I've bought a second hand Yamaha YCL 34 II S and I'm ready to start over. My goal is not to play classical music, but jazz and ethnic styles.
Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is the clarinet a transposing instrument? Bb is just a whole step away from C. Wouldn't it be easier to call a Bb a Bb, instead of calling it a C?
I understand that it is necessary if you want to play the classical repertoire, because that is the tradition, and that's how the clarinet is notated. But if you want to play jazz or other styles, wouldn't it be easier to learn the real note names that corresponds to the fingerings from the start? It would be easier to communicate with other musicians, and you could share sheet music and chord charts without transposing.
I realize that you would still have to transpose when you read music written for clarinet, but most of the time that wouldn't be necessary if you play by ear and read standard notation, and talk to other musicians that play "C instruments".
I just think that it's awkward that when I play a "C" I hear a Bb. Am I missing something?
/ Tony
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-12-20 11:25
What you're missing is the ease of changing instruments. All clarinets are notated with the same general written range.
If you know how to read standard transposed notation for clarinet, and want to switch to bass clarinet, you can do it with relative ease. Likewise switching to A, C, D, or Eb clarinet.
Speaking of C clarinets - why not just get one of those for the music you want to play. A C is a C on that instrument.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: TonySwe
Date: 2012-12-20 12:07
Thanks for your explanaition, it helped me to understand this a bit better.
OK, I see what you mean. Maybe I missed that aspect of transposing instruments.
But still: if I told a clarinet player "Give me a C!", he/she would have to play a "D", an "Eb", a "Bb", or an "A", depending on what sort of clarinet it was.
Hey, I'm not trying to change the clarinet playing world. I was just thinking out loud. :o)
I think I will stick to my Bb clarinet, I like the way it sounds. After all, I'm used to transposing songs on the spot when a singer wants to change key. ;-)
Thanks again!
/ Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-12-20 12:28
If you asked for a Concert C, the various pitches of clarinets (from highest to lowest) will have to play the following fingered notes:
An Ab sopranino clarinet will have to play an E,
a G sopranino clarinet will have to play an F,
an Eb clarinet will have to play an A,
a D clarinet will have to play a Bb,
a C clarinet will play a C,
a Bb clarinet will have to play a D,
an A clarinet will have to play an Eb,
a G clarinet will have to play an F,
a basset horn (in F) will have to play a G,
an alto clarinet (in Eb) will have to play an A,
a bass clarinet (in Bb) will have to play a D,
a bass clarinet in A will have to play an Eb,
a contra-alto clarinet (in Eb) will have to play an A,
and a contrabass clarinet (in Bb) will have to play a D.
But if you asked the players of any of these clarinets to play a C, they will play the fingered C on their instrument which is the same on all clarinets.
The three main C fingerings on any clarinet are:
C4 - Th.xxx|ooo
C5 - Sp.Th.xxx|xxxF/C
C6 - Sp.Th.ooo|ooo
Transposition makes it easy for one player to play them all using the same fingering instead of having to learn different fingerings for each different pitch clarinet which would be a nightmare.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TonySwe
Date: 2012-12-20 12:55
Thanks, Chris!
I'm beginning to get this now. I can see the pros of transposing instruments.
Well, I've learned something today, too! That is good. :o)
/ Tony
P.S. I will be back with other stupid clarinet related questions. ;-)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-12-20 13:23
>>Transposition makes it easy for one player to play them all using the same fingering instead of having to learn different fingerings for each different pitch clarinet which would be a nightmare.>>
Yes, recorders come in only two keys (F anc C) but they're all notated at concert pitch. Learning the separate set of fingerings for the recorders in F is a nuisance.
There's also another reason why we ended up with clarinets in so many different keys. In Mozart's day, clarinets had many fewer keys (in the sense of keys made of metal) on them than modern instruments do. Those antique clarinets play out of tune on a lot of the sharped or flatted notes in "remote" key signatures. Antique texts about composing warn composers never to write for clarinets, flutes or oboes in key signatures with more than three (sometimes they say four) flats or sharps. So a composer would specify which key of clarinet to use in order to make reading the music easier for the player, as Chris explained, and also in order to hear better intonation in the performance.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-12-20 15:44
If you want a "Dummy's" way of understanding it. Think of a singer's vocal range. Billy Holiday had just 1 octave, lets say 1.1/2 octaves as an average. This leads to popular music being written to have a range of, say, 1.1/2 octaves. If every instrument played concert C when you fingered C then the musical output of an entire orchestra would be over a range of 1.1/2 octaves. Very boring. In reality, thanks to transposing instruments, that transpose away from the written note, from a single written song where the notes only cover a range of 1.1/2 octaves the output from the orchestra can play the song over several octaves, from flutes and piccolos to contra bassoon and contrabass tuba.
Anyway that's my understanding of it, as a dummy.
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Author: William
Date: 2012-12-20 16:29
If you "play a C and hear a Bb", perhaps you have what is called, ' perfect pitch'. It can be a gift or a curse. A gift because you always know what pitches you are hearing in your head and can write or improvise easily. A curse like you said, always hearing the notes you see one step off. I had a clarinetist friend who had to overcome that malady but eventually became a very proficient classical clarinetist. Another old friend of mine with PP could sit in a noisy college bar, live music being played LOUD, and write the most intricate arrangements on staff paper, never making a mistake. Your question about "why" a clarinet is written in Bb and not C has always confounded me as well. After all, if the fingering you are using produces Bb, why not just write it that way?? Anyone have a good answer, squeek up ;>]
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2012-12-22 19:58
In the 18th century the normal setup for a clarinet player was clarinets in A, Bb and C. Leila is correct that composers avoided too many flats/sharps for clarinet because it's almost impossible to play a scale fluidly with more than one key-signature.
Mozart wrote all his clarinet parts in written signatures of C/Am or F/Dm. I don't think there are any exceptions. To my knowledge he never wrote anything with a #-signature. Others wrote occationally in G major so the rule was basically to write with one flat or sharp only. This will give you:
for C-clarinet: C/Am, G/Em and F/Dm.
for Bb-clarinet: Bb/Gm, F/Dm and Eb/Cm.
for A-clarinet: A/F#m, D/Bm and E/C#m.
The first piece I can recall right now in Ab major (Bb- clarinet two flats) is Beethoven's Septet second movement.
In Mozart's Cosi fan Tutte there is one piece (a Quartet?) written with one sharp for A-clarinet, concert E major that was originally written for B-natural clarinet in the written key of F major.
Alphie
Post Edited (2012-12-23 16:52)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-12-22 20:49
Well I have got quite good at transposing lately as am in love with my Eb clarinet but there is not much written for it outside of the orchestral repertoire.
I have transposed all sorts of stuff, not just pieces written for clarinet but pieces for other instruments. Now if I like the sound of something I transpose it. I do make sure I buy the original so that I don't 'do' people out of their copyright dues though. I have to admit to having requested Photoscore Ultimate to add to Sibelius 7 as a Xmas pressie. I have sneakily previewed it and it seems pretty good overall at transposing some very tricky pieces ;-)
Post Edited (2012-12-22 20:55)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-23 02:54
Alphie wrote:
> In the 18th century the normal setup for a clarinet player was
> clarinets in A, Bb and C.
>
> for C-clarinet: C, G and F major and their parallel keys.
> for Bb-clarinet: Bb, F and Eb major and their parallel keys.
> for A-clarinet: A, D and E major and their parallel keys.
>
Johann Molter's (1696 - 1765) 4 clarinet concerti were all composed for D clarinet (concert keys are D, G and A), which I think I remember reading was the key of the original clarinets produced by the Denner family of instrument makers (whether Johann or his son Jacob seems to be an open question). So the above list needs to be expanded at least to include the clarinet in D.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-12-23 13:23)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-12-23 05:54
The transposition definitely helps when playing clarinets in different tranposition, like Bb and A. It isn't really needed when playing Bb soprano and Bb bass clarinets, which are just an octave apart.
I'd still prefer to learn the usual names and fingerings, but unless you plan on playing already written clarinet charts you really have. You can learn the Bb as a C instrument. I know a trumpet player who did exactly that with a Bb trumpet. They play almost only their own music, music written specifically for them, or by ear, so it's never a problem.
But if you think you might want to play already written parts with accompaniment or with others, or play other clarinets (except bass) then it will probably be better learning the normal fingerings.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2012-12-23 08:51
When Alphie from Sweden writes:”... for Bb-clarinet: Bb, F and Eb major and their parallel keys” he uses the expression the same way as it is used in German, but not in English: “Mollparallele” for Bb major in German would be G minor (in English “relative minor”- same key signature- as I just learned from omniscient Wikipedia). In English, “parallel key” - for Bb major is Bb minor (same tonic)- and that wouldn’t make sense concerning clarinets.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-12-23 10:18
Here's a video of someone playing nearly every size of clarinet from (nearly) the largest to smallest using the same fingered notes so you can hear the different pitches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjERmUZUY78
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-12-23 14:03
>> In English, “parallel key” - for Bb major is Bb minor (same tonic)- and that wouldn’t make sense concerning clarinets. <<
It wouldn't make sense regardless of that but that's the way it is...
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-12-23 14:08
Karl,
The use of the D clarinet was not in the armoury of a gigging late 18th C clarinettist. The use of the D and indeed C clarinets by Denner and Zencka where for special occasions when they existed in the 1720s-1740s. The two double concertos for oboes and clarinets (in C) by Vivaldi where for a special occasion and also the fact that some people where able to play them. Likewise the six concerti by Molter where more than likely written for a player that could play the 2 keyed clarinet and possibly the flute, oboe and chalumeau. There are a few instances in the scores of Rameau where the wind parts require a player to double.
So we really need to think more abou lt the time when the clarinet became an excepted member of the woodwind family.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2012-12-23 16:59
Obviously "parallel key" are different in German vs. English traditions. If a key's "relative minor" makes more sence than that's what I mean in my earlier posting. C/Am, F/Dm etc. etc........!
Alphie
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