 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: whonderwhy797
Date: 2012-12-12 18:02
I'm a sophomore in college majoring in music, and I still can't tongue properly.
I feel very discouraged because I feel like no matter what I try I can't get a smooth legato tonguing without hearing a "click" or a bend in the note. My professor and I are working on proper tonguing. She put a dot on my tongue to see where on tongue and reed I am hitting. There is a discrepancy from where I think I tongue and where I actually tongue..this is perhaps the most frustrating part of tonguing...no one can actually see what I am doing!! My teacher consistently says I use too much tongue pressure which I understand but I literally try to let my tongue "fall" onto the reed and she still says "too much pressure." I have decent breath support and try to keep a focused airstream and try to let my tongue "ride" on the air but I still fail. As a side note, I can't articulate well if I say "tee-tee-tee" without a mouthpiece, and I can't roll my r's.
I took lessons since 4th grade and underwent embouchure changes as well as articulation changes. For example, I used to not even hit the reed, but instead tongue on the roof of my mouth! This past year I have minimized throat movement greatly..this is the only visible progress I have made. Anyway...I can't describe the frustration I am feeling.
My setup is a Pyne Bel Canto (medium opening) and experimenting between blue box 4's and V12's. I know the Pyne mouthpieces can be "difficult" to articulate on but I try using my hite premier and still have the same issues.
Anyone else have similar issues? I know it's hard to help me since you don't "see" what's going on. I just feel like I am a decent player and I could be doing so much better...Responses greatly appreciated!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-12-12 18:55
OK, STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING IMMEDIATELY !!!!
Robert Marcellus used to say learning how to tongue is like potty training. It is slow and can be a frustrating process, but one withe GREAT reward.
Firstly, one does NOT "hit" the reed. You are only REMOVING the tongue from the reed to produce the sound. So, build your air pressure have the tongue on the reed (just enough to stop it from vibrating.....remember, no sound). Now just RELEASE your tongue and allow the sound to come out. ALL tonguing (more or less) is THIS technique no matter what speed we are talking about. So as you graduate to playing several articulated notes in a row your mental emphasis is NOT on the placing of the the tongue (because this only STOPS the sound) on the reed but rather on removing the tongue from the reed.
Initially the produced sound may be more of an unsatisfactory "thut, thut, thut," but this is fine to start. As you feel the LEAST amount of effort you need to damp the reed and concentrate on the release, the sound will become more defined.
PRACTICE S-L-O-W-L-Y at first. This will take weeks to develop. Just have patience.
As for precise placement, that is more subjective really. You may want to strive to have a place closest to the tip of your tongue placed as close to the tip of the reed as possible but there is quite a bit of variance here. Just get the technique of it down first.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: whonderwhy797
Date: 2012-12-12 20:23
Thanks Paul,
I have tried this too. My teacher told me the same thing and she studied with Marcellus. I've been working on this for about a year and it hasn't gotten better..
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-12-12 21:18
Watch yourself in a mirror. Make sure your jaw and Adam's apple don't move. There should be no external sign that you're tonguing.
Play low C with just your left hand and rest your right hand gently on your abdomen below the ribs. Then play tongued notes. You should not feel any "breath bump" that goes along with your tongue. The air and support must remain perfectly even.
The cure for both problems is to think of playing a long tone that the tongue merely moderates.
Play low C, mezzo forte, and pass the tip of your tongue up past the reed tip, but keep it further away so that you just miss. Gradually move the tip of your tongue forward until it just barely brushes the reed. Never stop blowing. The effect is a tiny, light articulation.
Next, use the area just back of the tip of your tongue and once again start off the reed, with a LA stroke rather than TA. This will produce the lighter, smoother articulation I think your teacher wants to hear.
These exercises are simple but not easy. If you've been doing it one way for a long time, it takes your closest attention to make any changes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-12-12 23:57
Here are two things to try. First, try playing double lip. I've found that some tonguing issues clear up when playing this way. If this doesn't help . . .
Many great players in the past used anchor tonguing. I don't usually recommend it and it's not often used anymore, but if nothing else works, it's worth a try. In Keith Stein's Art of Clarinet Playing, he has a long discussion about it in the "Release and Tonguing" chapter.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-12-13 02:29
I wonder if your tongue position is right to begin with. If your teacher is a Marcellus student, she should know how to teach tongue position and airstream, and good articulation begins with that.
In teaching articulation to students of any age, I start with a "contact drill." The dolce tone is the benchmark for everything we do on the clarinet, so the first step is to find the best possible tone with a focused airstream and a nice, compact oral cavity. Maintaining that tone, bring your tongue (not necessarily the tip, because everyone is different, just whatever part reaches the reed naturally as you maintain your airstream focus) as close as possible to the reed.
As the tongue gets closer and closer, keep supporting the sound. DON'T STOP BLOWING. Eventually, your tongue will get so close that it can't help touching. Make it touch as little as possible, and keep supporting the sound. Your tongue will set up a very slight stutter on the reed. Don't be distracted if the stutter is uneven or doesn't sound like articulation, the key is to find the position in which your tongue can BOTH maintain the proper airstream focus and oral cavity, AND touch the reed. That position, and the resulting tiny contact, is your key. If your tone support falters, if your airstream changes, you need to start over. There is no one correct contact point -- the drill is to find YOUR correct contact point. The tone will tell you if you're right or not.
Give it a try, let me know if you have any questions. I've had pretty good luck with this approach in the studio.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-12-13 14:33
While the idea of a release can be useful, I don't think it suits your problem. It sounds like, as your teacher has identified, your tonguing is not at the right part of the reed. An alternative to these:
Through your embouchure say the word 'deed' - through the embouchure it may be closer to 'dewd'
Now link them together deed-deed-deed-deed-deed
The last d of the word only sort of sounds, it becomes the first of the
next. Sing these words on a single note, but try to connect them as much as possible.
Now try whispering them, but keep them really
well connected, like your singing.
Now make an embouchure and do the same whisper onto the reed. You will probably hear a shadow of the note. Then increase the volume of the whisper - you can do this by making the whispered ee/ew sound more intense. The notes should start to sound with the increased air pressure, and your tonguing should feel different. Ideally you want the contact to be with the tip of the reed, although it does not matter so much which part
of your tongue hits (as everyone's tongue is a different size)
Two words of advice:
Make sure you are not reverting to your tonguing - let it feel different and work from there.
The word is 'deed' not 'dee' although the
last consonant becomes the first of your next - what this achieves is bringing the tongue more gradually back the reed, and lessening the attack (caused by too much tongue velocity) on the next note.
In favour of my advice over that provided, consider that we primarily use the tongue to make words (which we are very good at) and almost never require it to perform non-word related actions. For this reason, instructions like 'ride the airstream', 'let it fall', 'think of the release' never worked for me (I had similar problems to you) I can see some value in them, but at a very late stage. And still I prefer to think in terms of words - the same thing can be expressed by making the vowel sound, ee/ew as long as possible(so for a crotchet, more time is spent proportionally on the vowel and less of the consonants/attack).
Let me know if this works for you.
Post Edited (2012-12-13 15:13)
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Author: whonderwhy797
Date: 2012-12-17 05:00
Alexis,
My teacher taught me the same syllable a you- the "ew" in "dewd." I understand that part..but I still don't understand where my tongue should touch the reed. My teacher penciled in a line on the reed and put a dot on my tongue (showed it to me in a mirror) to specify this. However you and some others say it doesn't matter where I my tongue hits the reed. I am very confused in this regard. However, my teacher helped me discover that I have a misconception between where I think I tongue and where I actually tongue..thanks for your help though.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-12-17 11:42
Hi,
It matters that you hit the tip of the reed. Which part of the tongue is dependent on how long your tongue is. A very short tongue may feel the
contact at the tip and it will get further back the longer your tongue is.
When I get to a computer I will try to draw this in paint, but at the
moment, words will have to suffice.
When you say 'hee' your tongue is arched so the middle/back is up, and the tip is angled downwards towards your bottom
teeth. Like a hill, where middle/back is the peak, and the tip is the bottom of
the slope.
If you say deed the tongue starts, in my case, just behind my top teeth - I can feel them. It comes back to the 'hee' positions on the vowel and back to the teeth on the final consonant. Roughly speaking the movement is diagonal - it has a backwards/forwards and an down/up component.
When you put the mouthpiece in the way, the up/down component disappears. Think about where the tip of the reed will be: it will be facing the slope of the hill. You can now whisper 'deed'. Even though the outcome may be dewd, try to make it deed - it will keep the arch better. Instead of making its
full diagonal journey to the back of the teeth, the tongue is cut off by the large obstruction in front of it, with the tip of the reed being the point of contact. Note that it's just the first point on the slope to get there - on me it's relatively close to the point of the tongue, but my tongue is small and short.
Try holding the clarinet horizontally. I.e 90 degree angle to your body. This makes the tip of the reed.the only possible point of contact if your tongue has the correct slope. Do that with the whispers and see
if it makes a difference. Stick with lower register notes/exercises. Different registers require subtle changes in air pressure and position, but they can wait.
Post Edited (2012-12-17 12:07)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-12-17 12:01
For the record, I think you are probably hitting the reed below the tip, which is why you get the pitch bend.
There are lots of ways this can happen. It could be because your tongue is not arched enough and the movement of your tongue is more up down. Or if you are arching correctly, it's possible the clarinet is too close the vertical, meaning your first point contact with the reed is below the tip. The solution may not be to do with the tongue entirely - it may require a different embouchure or a greater angle. Or a change in your posture. None of which I can help with!
But hopefully what I wrote before is clear. I will try and make a diagram sometime.
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Author: morbius
Date: 2012-12-18 14:46
Yep. was my issue as well. What I learned from Marcellus is that it is the point of the tongue that is crucial; not how hard you hit the reed. Keep the tongue POINTED... NO SPUNGY TONGUE. Keep your jaw as open as you can; the more pressure you put on the reed (don't "chew" on the reed... think of two peices of chalk between your back teeth). Keep your air speed up. Lurie used to say, the faster you go, the more you need to think of more movement of the tip of the tongue.... don't let the tongue get "muscle bound".
John Dorch
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-12-19 14:28
Facts about articulation:
(1) The tongue interrupts the vibration of the reed,
(2) When the tongue leaves the reed, the reed begins to vibrate again because the air pressure in the mouth is higher than the air pressure inside the mouthpiece.
What is required of the tongue to make (1) happen actually varies depending on whether the note being played lies towards the top of the instrument's range, or whether it lies towards the bottom of the instrument's range. At the top, the smallest contact will stop the note; at the bottom, more contact may be required.
Because a clean beginning of the next note is required, a simple action has the best chance of success. Thus:
(3) an easily reversed action providing the minimal tongue/reed contact necessary to stop and then start the note cleanly (you can determine that experimentally for yourself) is all that is required IN THE ABSTRACT.
There is a lot of codswallop talked about what you MUST do to satisfy (3). In fact, there's only one thing you MUST do, and that's to keep blowing strongly throughout!
Some of that codswallopry can be reversed by taking instructions of what you MUST do as things rather to TRY, understanding that the abstract requirements in (3) above are what you're aiming for.
For example, precise instructions as to the flexion of the tongue, position of contact on the reed and so on need not be followed -- provided (3) is achieved, as judged by your ear. People differ.
However, sometimes people have already painted themselves into a corner about articulation. My own rather comprehensive list of possible things to think about for people in that sort of difficulty is contained in:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=316748&t=316712&v=t
...but understand that not all of that will be useful in any particular case.
Tony
Post Edited (2012-12-20 21:48)
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