 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Carl Maria von Weber
Date: 2012-12-09 20:58
I produce a warm, full, resonant sound on my clarinet, but my way of playing recently has resulted in too much tension. Playing on a single-lip embouchure, I often feel that the back of my tongue gets very strained after a few minutes of playing Rossini Theme and Variations. When I correct this, my lower teeth get very strained, and because of my braces sometimes make marks at the bottom of my mouth. When I relax the teeth, the tongue gets stressed again. Does anyone know how I can remedy this problem? I play with the back of my tongue touching the upper molars, but if I am too relaxed I can't tongue to even adequate (112-120) speeds.
Post Edited (2012-12-10 03:33)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-12-09 21:15
Stop trying to correct things.
Seriously.
They'll start to work themselves out.
I'm just now starting to calm down after completely screwing up my breathing process by trying to "improve it", resulting in an intermittent inability to take a deep breath.
Your body is a LOT more complex than a lot of people give it credit for, and focusing on "fixing" one spot or another just leads to the creation of more and more problems.
Instead, focus on a desired result. Go for a particular sound or technique, and let your body take care of the details required in order to produce it.
If you try to keep any part of your body loose or tight, you'll immediately lose the desired effect as soon as your mind wanders from it. After that, you'll probably be frustrated and tense up even more and be even further unable to get the effect you want.
I went down this road. Very, very, very far down this road. It has no happy ending. So step off while the going is easy. Pay attention just to what you want to happen, try a bunch of different ways about it, and let your body learn how to best get there.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-09 22:25
I would suggest that with everything completely relaxed you won't produce a controlled sound at all. The problem is that when you micromanage the different components the way you're trying to do, the result is most often confusion and a transfer of unneeded effort and resulting tension from one place to another. As Alex has suggested, you should get off this merry-go-round and find a different overall approach.
The best way to do this would be to have an experienced teacher listen to you and watch what you're doing at first hand. Verbal accounts are so packed with opportunities for misdirection, misunderstanding and selective description that it's really not possible to know what's truly going on in your playing by reading your question. Nearly every sentence in your post can be understood in more than one way, not because you intend any deception or your writing is poor, but because the words don't necessarily mean the same thing to each of us.
If you're not already studying, arranging a lesson or two with a teacher doesn't need to lead to a long-term commitment. If you are studying with someone, he or she should be your best guide to your gaining the level of comfort you're looking for. If you're studying and don't trust the advice of the teacher, it would be a good reason for going to someone else.
Karl
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Author: reed and MP dude
Date: 2012-12-09 22:48
Can you take a picture of your embouchure and post it? I'm not kidding! I didn't read any of the other posts. Also send a sound clip if you can. Just a few notes is fine. A simple scale, half notes are fine. Playing a piece from Kodely or something isn't needed.
A photo from the front and the side would help a lot. Or both sides.
Are you taking lessons? Be careful here, not all teachers have good sounds and well addressed embouchures.
Almost everyone bites on the mouthpiece. Not good. For example, a person with a beautiful sound has a very good embouchure, able to play unlimited hours per day. No embouchure is the same, because everyone's mouth formation is different, so you need to develop it. If your lower lip gets sore or even cut after an hour or so from the pressure of playing, your embouchure needs adjustments.
I would think that a lot of people here think that a sore lower lip is expected when playing the horn. All I can say is try experimenting.
Once you know the basics about an embouchure, use a mirror and watch your embouchure when playing scales, mainly slow scales. I didn't think of this. The use of a mirror was drilled into my brain starting around the 9th grade. I often still use one when fighting some sort of sound issue, mainly way up in the upper register, the area when dogs bark. I'm 56. Using a mirror is a tool that should be used everyday. It also helps a lot with finger positions. A mirror is like a metronome. Use it everyday. Take the low and high C above the staff. If you are biting your embouchure needs some adjustments; a tune up.
A and Bb r13's new.
Bb r13 1963 backup
Vandoren 56
Ciaccia custom mouthpiece
1.07mm facing amazing mouthpiece
2 Kaspers as spares
Post Edited (2012-12-09 23:20)
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Author: reed and MP dude
Date: 2012-12-10 00:11
I thought about this a bit more. The Spohr concerto's, for whatever reason I kind of dig playing the second concerto; should be played a lot more at the college levels. Also recorded more from the great clarinet players.
It's a great workout. I wish it was asked more for auditions, because it is musical at times, wicked fast at times, and the notes go very high and fast at times! It surely gives you a break from playing Mozart at every audition.
Some people are so sick of the Mozart Concerto a place called RDG Woodwinds has a huge selection of new clarinets. On the door it says no Mozart playing!
If you can play these high notes without messing up the fast passages don't mess with anything. Your embouchure is perfect. Towards the end of the piece is your workout area.
I think Spohr may have hated the clarinet, or clarinet players!
Google it if you haven't heard it played. Did Spohr hate clarinet players? Let me know!
A and Bb r13's new.
Bb r13 1963 backup
Vandoren 56
Ciaccia custom mouthpiece
1.07mm facing amazing mouthpiece
2 Kaspers as spares
Post Edited (2012-12-10 00:13)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-12-10 00:52
reed and mpc dude,
What the hell are you talking about?
Is this supposed to be helpful?
And who in the world is Kodely?
-Jason
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Author: brycon
Date: 2012-12-10 01:29
Also, the purpose of the embouchure is to bite- that is to say, apply a certain amount of pressure to a certain area of the reed.
How are blanket statements of biting is bad helpful?
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Author: Carl Maria von Weber
Date: 2012-12-10 03:38
I was mainly wondering what to do inside my mouth, which obviously can't be seen by a mirror. I know this varies from person to person, but in general, where should the lower teeth be placed in comparison to the mouthpiece, reed, and the rest of the mouth? What about the back and middle of the tongue? Should I adhere to David Pino's low and forward tongue position or Tom Ridenour's more standard "high and back" approach?
Thanks!
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-12-10 04:21
"Carl",
Neither and both.
It is not that each "method" has its attributes and flaws and should be judiciously applied in the correct setting; thinking of the oral cavity in either manner is seriously short-sighted and self-limiting.
It is difficult to discuss what is occurring with tongue position as an outside observer, obviously.
Less acknowledged by many is that they do not have true complete knowledge of what their tongue is actually doing while they are themselves playing. I surely don't.... that is to say: I do know when I intend to do something, I know what I feel, and I think that is what comes to pass. But how do I really know if I can't see firsthand? I guess if the result is acceptable then I can live in partial ignorance.
The tongue, truth be told, can serve multiple roles simultaneously, there are studies hinting that what we think we are doing can be very misleading, and we can't be cognizant of every facet of the tongue's functions. (Try describing each movement of all portions of the tongue in speech....)
Now I don't mean to come across as a defeatist here to crush your hopes by saying "Ain't no one gonna be able to help ya!" But to tell you what to do would be irresponsible in this setting; and as hinted earlier I may be a hack and a clarinetist not to be trusted anyways.
Try playing for a teacher or even a friend, observe them playing, and see what you can discern. That would be far more illustrative than most advice you'll find here.
But I would tend to run from anyone that only speaks in concrete terms and tells you "you must do this" or "you must feel this."
I apologize for a lengthy and rambling reply; I do attempt to be Spartan with my words.
Best of luck
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-12-10 04:27)
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Author: reed and MP dude
Date: 2012-12-10 07:30
Wow Jason, I think someone needs more of my free lessons.
First thanks for taking the time to write. Please continue to do so. I know you are angry. Thats fantastic to question people. The only real way to learn is to question. However as a musician it is best to study a subject in question before looking a bit goofy. Remember the world can see this!
Can you play the Spohr concerto's? If not take some time and adjust your breathing and your embouchure, your whole body. Order any of his pieces and just try it and practice it so you won't have to kill yourself trying to play the high "C" scales when Spohr is throwing 16th notes at you around 144 on the metronome all at the same time. Some parts are actually a bit faster. I enjoy the Spohr Concerto's. I bet you are unaware of how many he wrote for the clarinet? 1, 2, 10? It's something you should know and have the music. When you start playing them, record your playing and I will be honored to give you some tips. All you need to do is email me with a link of you performing and I won't charge you my old college rates! That seems like a very fair deal for you. Take advantage of my free offers.
Well if you missed out with what I was trying to say, you missed out on an excellent lesson! As a past college instructor I charged about $70 per hour
for the non college students who wanted to take some lessons.
Who's Kodaly you ask... Another lesson. This is your lucky day.
Look up Kodaly. A master. Once you google him take some notes of his compositions. Order some music. Then ask me who the hell he is! He is amazing! Google his recordings. Most are free. The music may be free. I've had some pieces since the early 1970's and I still like to play his brilliant works. He's one of those composers that makes you want to have fun.
Then try to play them. You have lots of fun ahead of you. Maybe you are really and I mean really gifted and you can sight read them. Then study the Kodaly method of teaching. Pronounced Ko-die-e You may be able to teach young kids the joy of music. Wouldn't that feel great, teaching young 4 yr. olds the joy in her/his faces when they can sing music without notes.
Did you know there is a special school called Wellesley College that teaches his teaching methods for young kids to enjoy learning music at very early ages. 4 years old is common. Sort of like sign language. These classes are given during the summers for professional musicians.
I'm totally not judging you. Just take a look. He's a really cool person/subject to study and his love to teach children. We all need to take time and make learning fun for kids, perhaps one of the finest musicians in the future will have started at 4 using the Kodaly and you were part of this child turning into a true master.
Do your homework, before blasting me. You can still blast me! It's actually kind of fun. You can also blast me by writing emails to me! If you email me also give me your phone number and you can blast off at me on the phone too! My treat. I'll call you, so it won't cost you a penny! Now aren't I actually a very nice person? That was a joke, No need to get more angry. Be smart, learn some of his amazing works. You don't have to like it. You can hate it. Music isn't just the Mozart Concerto.
I enjoy playing violin music, because it goes so high up the scales. Thats another free lesson. If you learn to play high up like the violin players do you will surely be a much better player.
Just take a look.
brycon -
Have you spent a few months trying to play without biting? I'm not saying to just blow into the horn like a 10 pound vise. If your lower lip hurts and you are biting to hard to hit the high notes. just try it for a few months. Try to relax.
I play in the studios here in LA and I can play all day without a sore lip a cut lip, whatever. Can you play 5 hours a day, then go to a 2 hour rehearsal? I do it all of the time - without cut lips. You surely need pressure, just very little. It's not hard to learn. Just try it! Every morning we get the music, we practice alone to master our parts and then perform. We often have to play several parts. Not just the clarinet parts. These days sometimes there aren't any musicians. You use headset clickers. The the audio engineers put it together. A full orchestra sometimes.
If everyone wishes to suffer and always have sore lips and bite the heck out on the upper register, open your minds and just try it for a few months. Sure it's hard. Music is hard. Just try it.
It's kind of magical when everything like getting your tongue to relax. This makes music a lot more fun when things come together as one whole unit, your whole body relaxes and it's one whole unit and the clarinet is part of it.
My last lesson for the night to help prove my point, to the few readers here which created havoc!
After all - they know everything before trying something or taking 10 seconds to google Kodaly and play a few measures of Spohr.
You can thank me later or blast me again. Don't care, because I can play these pieces!
I really enjoy trying to help players become unbelievable performers. That's my goal here. To make players great players through often difficult new methods and new knowledge taught wrong by your past or present instructors.
For Carl Maria von Weber - and the many other forum readers.
Notice I said many. A lot of musicians already know this and it's not just the top symphony musicians. This most often comes from great teachers. Some of the forum readers may think this is a no brainer and wonder why this conversation is an issue. They;ve been playing correctly forever.
So you go to a store and buy a jar. You get home and try to open it. Look at yourself in a mirror when you need to put a bit of muscle into opening it. The dam thing just won't open, even if you are a 400 pound weight lifter. What happens? Your hands of course gain a grip on the jar. Surely your arms do to. How about your shoulders, your neck and you even bite your teeth. Myself, having many years of karate understands that even your legs and your feet try to get into that perfect position to open that dam jar.
The lesson here is to feel the clarinet as one whole unit. If you bite hard well you tense up. Your whole body, the back the neck, the works. The clarinet should always or almost always be tense free. Yes there are exceptions.
Google the Alexander Technique. Here, I made like easier for you. I already did it for the lazy folks. This is a study of how to relax, allowing one to be free of stress. When playing the clarinet this Alexander technique surely can be adapted. It works for daily walks, you feel lighter. The process comes from the head to your feet. Your body as a unit, as one conplex system. Your head weighs about 10 or more pounds. If you aren't in the correct position when playing, that 10 pounds equals a but- load of stress everywhere on your body. Remember Alexander wants you to be relaxed, stress free, making playing music a blast.
Everything I've written here cannot be mastered without effort. It's like playing scales. It's a daily event.
Be well my fellow forum friends and stay stress free. My promise to you all of you is you will surely play better relaxed and be able to play many hours with less stress. There of course is stress in music, just attempt to limit as much as you can.
No biting needed. Thats stress.
http://www.alexandertechnique.com/at.htm
A and Bb r13's new.
Bb r13 1963 backup
Vandoren 56
Ciaccia custom mouthpiece
1.07mm facing amazing mouthpiece
2 Kaspers as spares
Post Edited (2012-12-10 07:51)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-12-10 14:03
I think you might be in the 'I have tension in my embouchure spiral', as you are worried about having tension in your embouchure!
Some of the best advice I have had from people on here is that everyone is different and different things work for different people. One ' light bulb moment' for me was when Tony Pay said that he uses the underside of his tongue on the reed when articulating. I have struggled for years to use the tip of my tongue, and my natural method is similar to Tony's in this respect ( wish I played like Tony though ;-)
Another thing that helps me is the rocket tonguing exercise that Michele Gingras uses where you let your tongue rebound off the reed. It just minimises the amount of effort for me and hence reduces the stress.
When I get stressed I tend to interrupt my air flow and I need to remind myself to keep it constant, else playing is hard work and hence further feeds into the stress cycle.
Several other people on this board have said about thinking 'in the moment' or 'thinking fast'. If you can't think it fast enough you won't tongue it fast enough.
I am not saying any of the methods I use successfully will work for you but don't restrict yourself to thinking there is only one 'correct way' of doing things.
Your anatomical and mental processes will pre-determine many of the potential 'choices' that you can make.
Post Edited (2012-12-10 14:23)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-12-10 14:37
Kodaly is well known to me; both his compositions and his educational system.
Kodely was however an enigma. (I know we are not supposed to correct spelling but we could perhaps get a famous composer's name up on the screen correctly. But I do appreciate the lessons)
Yes I have performed some of Spohr's solo clarinet works. I also instructed my full-time students at my former Conservatory post (albeit in a foreign country) on some of said compositions. In between rehearsals and concerts in my orchestral post of course.
I do appreciate the offer for free lessons however I must respectfully decline.
"Carl", I think you'll be better served seeking advice in other settings.
But I must go as my free-time is a bit limited today
And please do not confuse my candor with anger.... frustration is another story.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-12-10 14:49)
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Author: reed and MP dude
Date: 2012-12-11 08:35
Buster/Jason
Jason wrote....... "And who in the world is Kodely?" - Jason
Jason said the correct spelling is "KODELY" and I spelled it wrong.
Jason you are right, you shouldn't go against the FORUM RULES about correcting spelling errors. It's not necessary. In fact I make a lot of spelling mistakes. I have dyslexia. Somehow I got a Ph.D at Cal Tech related to earthquake vibrations. BA, and MA, in music performance. I live in California; thus the fascination, actually transfixed when quakes hit.
Yet another free lesson for you Jason; just for your edification.
The correct spelling is Zoltán Kodály. I had to look it up, as said I have dyslexia.
Hope this helps when people may want to google Zoltán Kodály.
And you asked at your above post ......
"And who in the world is Kodely?" - Jason
Your last post you said you know all about him. I guess I wasted my time with telling you who he was. I spent about 30 minutes diligently trying to help you.
All I can say is I hope the forum readers found Kodaly interesting to read or may share this post to some of their friends that teach young kids the beauty of music through the art and eyes of the Kodaly method.
Jason, this topic between us is closed. You of course can continue to write, however I won't answer, unless you have serious genuine questions about music, not just Spohr and Kodaly.
I would like to hear your Spohr recording.
A and Bb r13's new.
Bb r13 1963 backup
Vandoren 56
Ciaccia custom mouthpiece
1.07mm facing amazing mouthpiece
2 Kaspers as spares
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-12-11 14:02
"[...] and because of my braces sometimes make marks at the bottom of my mouth."
Wait until your braces are off before worrying too much about any of this. There are many times you'll have to adjust to your body over the course of your playing career. Do what works for the music, as you need it now, and without doing physical damage to yourself (gouged and bleeding lower lip is not recommended!). Then, when things are more stable, you'll be better able to look for long term solutions.
(I'd also recommend doing a search of this site for discussions about embouchure, and take all of it with a grain of salt. There are top pros who have commented here, rank amateurs, know-it-alls of all castes, and not all the information is useful, valid, or intelligent. Fwiw, I don't think internet forums are terribly useful for embouchure discussions, though at least you can gain some insight as to the diversity of opinion on these matters. Good luck).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-12-11 23:05
I vowed I was not going to respond, but I'd be remiss not to; if only for my own personal skewed edification.
Joe, on one hand I apologize for the "Kodely" fiasco; you have dyslexia which should not be made light of.
On the other hand, I don't feel badly because on some level we shouldn't care. The world can watch and read us without that knowledge and be confused by poorly composed, wandering posts.
The world doesn't care that I have quite severe adult onset ADD at the ripe old age of 34 which I cannot take medication for because of other health matters. In fact, I hope that is not evident to others because I take what I put down here seriously when called for.
Does that mean I take great time composing my words, taking many breaks to read and re-read what I've written for clarity; taking the time to fix errors and spell-checking so I can get across what I feel is important? Of course... though I hold no delusions that I am a wonderfully gifted author.
None of this requires a pat on the head or a medal, and I don't bring it up for any such acknowledgement; please don't misconstrue. But shouldn't we all hold ourselves to this "ideal." One of putting thoughtful information across in a cogent, and coherent manner... not coming across as an author taking correspondence classes in literary composition from a hack-James Joyce imitator.
If helpful information is not put across in an intelligent manner it won't be read. Seemingly flippant errors that we may dismiss in our writing for "lack of time to edit" or any other myriad of excuses really should be eliminated. Perhaps I am nit-picking, but I know many that occasionally read what is written here and laugh at, or are turned off by the prose. What of younger students too afraid to post that are poisoned by our laziness?
This ignores the sometimes horrible, or flat out wrong information that is presented here. A poster asking advice about fixing a "fundamental" issue while "helping" another regarding the same matter in a concurrently running thread? Don't we owe ourselves more than that?
I'm sure this appears a self-serving soap-box tome from my computer... as if I am a self-appointed moderator. But please don't take my word for it. Why should you trust me? Listing what I've done, who I've played with, even my achievements outside the realm of music only serve to stroke my ego and really can only project a false stature. We all need to look in the mirror and take responsibility.
If you aren't truly knowledgeable of what you write, keep it to yourself. If you are, put it forth intelligently. And be willing to admit when you are wrong. (And yes... I am sure I have violated these "rules" myself in the past.)
I supposed this post is not directed at anyone in particular, or is for whoever chooses to read it. On some level, I guess I am writing it for my own sake.
But it will likely be scarcely read and pass into oblivion as most words here do.
-Jason
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