 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-07 20:11
Why is it that one day a particular reed works great and the next day there isn't enough air in the world to get it to play well? I really am stumped and don't even know where to begin to start correcting the problem. I leave my clarinet together on a stand overnight...could that be a problem? I put my reeds into a metal holder when I'm done playing...could that be a problem? Is letting it soak in my mouth for a longer-than-normal amount of time a potential problem? Help! Thanks:)
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2012-12-07 22:38
I sympathize. Could be any or all of those things, or many more. But maybe it's just time to put a new reed on your mouthpiece.
Unless this happens with every reed you play.
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2012-12-07 23:18
How long have you been playing? Do you adjust your reeds at all? Do you have a few reeds that are playing OK that you rotate through?
I have not been playing long. I play vandoren standard 2.5 reeds. I bought and really like the Ridenour ATG system. With it, you can make reeds vibrate easier and adjust them to be a bit softer when needed. Most can be made to play well. Almost all need at least some adjusting. I am on my second box of 10 reeds.
I use a Rico reed case and rotate through 8 reeds that are broken in. I keep a 58 percent humidity pack in the case to keep them from totally drying out. When one turns too soft or buzzy, I replace it with a new one.
I break in reeds by soaking a couple minutes and playing a few minutes once a day for 3 or 4 days. I limit the playing time to 15 minutes for the next few plays, and let the reeds rest and dry every other day. I'm not sure all that makes a difference. I rub the reeds on both back and front with the moistened backing of wet or dry sand paper once or twice during break in. I start making minimal adjustments after about two brief plays during the break in.
Jim C.
CT, USA
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-12-07 23:19
I battle with reeds a lot when the seasons change because the humidity is constantly changing. I have a Rico reed case that has the humidifier packets inside of it. I'm not sure how much of a difference they make (if at all), but I like the fact that I can put all of my different-sized reeds in the same case.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: William
Date: 2012-12-08 02:10
Properly conditioned cane will be more consistant for a longer period of time, which varies a lot between different players. However, no matter how carefully you break in, balance and seal your reed, it will change a little bit from use to use. The biggist challenge of playing clarinet is to learn to deal with reed inconsistancies and try to sound the same, no matter "what". Professor Bill Stubbins used to say, "PLAY THE REED, don't let the reed play you". I think most successful professionals might agree.......
However, I should not be giving reed advice as I have permanently given up on cane in favor of synthetics, Forestone being my current reed of choice. The reeds are extremely consistant from day to day, never need balancing or curing and are ALWAYS ready to play with no moistening necessary. And with a little practice, sound and play the same as cane. Forestones or Legeres might be worth a try for you.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-08 04:51
I can't say for sure, but when I have a similar problem it is usually reed warping. The thick part of the reed is not sealing on the table of the mouthpiece, making it difficult to play. This can happen any time, but is more common a newer reed. Some of my best new reeds have become nearly unplayable when this happens. The way to tell is to do the suction test: Take the barrel and mouthpiece off, and cover the barrel with the flat of your hand, making a seal. Suck in on the mouthpiece. If the reed doesn't stick to the tip of the mouthpiece for at least a long second or two, it is probably warped. The back will need to be sanded on fine paper, 600 - 350 grit, lying on a perfectly flat surface (piece of glass). Wet your fingers, place one on the bark, one in the middle of the vamp, gently move back and forth. If you don't want to thin the tip/vamp, just sand the thick area by allowing the thin part to hang over the edge of the paper. Sometimes when I do this I finish by sanding the whole reed with a couple of passes on 600 grit, so I don't have any rough transitions at the unsanded portion. I have been able to revitalize some reeds after a little sanding. But with some I have had to be surprisingly aggressive, several sandings with 350 grit.
Best wishes I hope you find a solution, failing reeds can be a real pain.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-12-08 07:28
You didn't mention what brand of reed you're using. Most of the name-brand reeds will give reasonable service, but I've come across some lesser-known or no-name reeds that are barely fit for use as lollipop sticks. If you're using a generic or no-name brand this could be part of the problem. If you're using a major brand reed and you still get the problem then the problem is elsewhere.
My first thought would be to look carefully at where the reed is sitting on the mouthpiece. Any inconsistency there will cause differences in the way the reed plays. Any distortion of the mouthpiece can cause this sort of problem as well. Have you tried other mouthpieces?
If the reed holder you're using is one of those that grips the reed with a spring clip then check it carefully. I've come across a lot of those which damage or distort the reed.
Tony F.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-12-08 13:55
As mentioned above, I agree that it is likely that the reed has warped slightly. Besides the suction test, you may notice trails of moisture on the table along the edges. It is also easy to put it on a piece of glass and see if it sits flat or rocks back and forth.
I use a bastard file or http://www.reedfile.com The Vandoren resurfacer may work nicely as well. I find it easier than sandpaper. It seems that I can flatten the back a bit easier without affecting the tip as much. A few swipes is often all it takes to get the reed responding nicely again.
Some will suggest synthetics. For me, I have tried them a number of times and have yet to be satisfied with the playability or sound. You may have different results.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-08 14:55
It's hard to tell if this is a problem for you with new reeds or with ones you've been playing on for awhile. If it's happening consistently, you may not actually have seasoned, stable reeds in your collection.
Here's one thing you should try with any reed that you've played on for only a limited time (during the "break-in" process). Before you put the reed away in whatever kind of case or holder you're using let it dry **flat side up** first. Play on a new reed 5 or 10 minutes (some players like to limit the first playing to only a minute or two), then lay it down on your desk or a table (anywhere that's exposed to air) flat-side-up. Once it's dry, you can store it nearly anywhere until you use it again. I follow the same process for 2 or 3 more playings before I put the reed to heavier use, but other players have different opinions about this. The whole "break-in" process tends to be pretty idiosyncratic, almost to the point of constituting "personal witchcraft." For me, the only really essential thing is not to let a new reed ever dry with the flat side against anything. It prevents the reed from drying evenly from both surfaces, which is in my opinion the main cause of warping. (In fact, I never dry any reed, new or old, with its flat side against anything - my holders keep the reeds on their edges so both surfaces are exposed to air. I almost never have a reed warp.)
It has always seemed to me that, in addition to any possibility of warping, new reeds also tend to undergo small dimensional changes - Donald Casadonte, if he's reading this thread, may have a comment confirming or disputing this - as they become wet. The more water a new reed has taken on during the playing session, the more these changes seem to occur. For some reeds that don't appear to be warped, the only solution may be to either discard them or learn to adjust them by removing small amounts of cane in the places where the reed may have thickened and become more resistant. But without accurate enough measuring tools to back this up, it is really only part of *my* personal witchcraft and may not help you.
Karl
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-08 15:13
Yes, I would agree with Ed, and add that moisture anywhere on the table is a sign of warping, especially if you have a river running underneath the reed.
Karl I dry my ( high quality) reeds at home as you do, but still get warping. What type (brand) of reed case do you use? But what do you do after rehearsals or concerts, where it is not feasible to spend time to dry reeds before storing them? In my case it my be as long as 2 hours before I get home.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-12-08 15:22
I blame day-to-day changes in the way a reed plays on "atmospheric conditions." That's because the whole thing is a mystery to me. I keep my reeds in a press, so they are flat when I start playing.
I think that the air density changes with humidity. (Wet air is not as dense as dry air.) I have my biggest problems with reed consistency when the humidity changes. The dynamic pressure of moving air is given by half the air density multiplied by the square of the air speed; so when the humidity is high, you have to blow harder (faster) to get the same effect as you would get in drier air...
I've got some Forestones in my case; and when all else fails; I'll use one of those (I play on 3-1/2s, but need a 4.5 or 5 Forestone. They run quite soft for the maker's assigned hardness number.)
I keep 8 cane reeds that have all been balanced (ATG system) ready to go. They usually vary a bit in hardness, so I'll go through them searching for a good one before pulling out my Forestone.
Bob Phillips
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-08 15:44
Well, I often break another of the "rules" sometimes given here and store the reed I played on for a rehearsal or concert on the mouthpiece. The back of the reed is accessible to air (through the mouthpiece window) at least over an area that's roughly equal to the vamp side. The mouthpiece table and the bark likewise restrict access to evaporation over approximately the same areas of both surfaces.
But if I have my 'druthers, I put my reeds, even the one I've just finished using, in Gonzalez holders. I've only seen them at Muncy Winds. They come in two sizes - one holds 5 reeds and the other holds 20. I have a very old case that I bought from Jack Spratt Music 30 or 40 years ago and, until I found the Gonzalez cases recently, I protected that old holder almost with my life. Leblanc has for several years made a much cheaper version that I've tried, but it doesn't hold the reeds as securely and they sometimes end up being crushed against the top of the holder when it's closed. Ironically, the first version of this kind of case I ever had was the plastic 4-reed holder that used to come in the case with new Buffets at least up through the '60s. They weren't very durable, but they were built on the same principal. I still have one of those holding 4 of my Eb reeds.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 21:56
I initially played the reed for about 5 minutes then took it to my instructor for some "doctoring" because it played hard. After she did a little sanding, it played beautifully. She told me not to play it for at least 24 hours. So, after about 36 hours, I tried to play it and could hardly get it to play. Laurie...your suggestion is certainly worth a try. I haven't finished reading all the suggestions yet...hopefully, there will be others worth trying. I think the idea of using a synthetic reed may be worthwhile checking out.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 21:59
Tony...I'm using a 2 3/4 Gonzales FOF reed. And I'm using a Rovner ligature.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 22:04
Karl...what brand reed "storer" do you use that allows you to store then so that both front and back are exposed to air? My reeds are always VERY wet when I put then away...for some reason I salivate a lot when I play. I'll certainly give your breaking-in suggestions a try as well as the suggestion to let the reed dry flat side up. I'll have to figure out a way to transport the wet reed from practice/lesson to home so I don't damage it.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 22:07
Bob...the next time I have an issue with my reed, I'm checking the barometer and moisture-ometer! There may be something to this as, 1 day after experiencing this problem, we got snow.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-08 22:25
Check my answer to Laurie farther down the page.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-08 22:36
It's kind of funny. FWIW, Gigliotti used to provide his students with a reed from a box he kept in his desk drawer whenever he didn't like the one we came in with - which was (at least for me) most of the time. It was an open joke among all of us that, even though the reeds he adjusted for us at the lesson played very well at the lesson, they never felt good the next time we got them out to practice on at home. Possibly the reeds were already too wet by the time he finished working on them and some of the resistance came from the saturation of the cane. I don't really know to this day why it worked out so consistently that way. You've made me think - somewhere I have a reed I kept as a souvenir - the last one he ever adjusted for me before my studies with him ended. If I can find it, it might be an interesting thing to see how it plays after all these years. I'll have to look for it in the next day or two.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 22:43
"Which mouthpiece are you using?" one of you asked. I'm using a Fobes Debut CF+ but have just ordered 4 more from Music123. I'm going to try out the Fobes NOVA CF+, the Vandoren 5RV Lyre Traditional, the Rico Reserve X5, and the Selmer C85 105. Any bets on which one I end up keeping?
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 22:47
I hope you find it and that it brings back many fond memories.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-08 23:27
I just checked...and the reed IS warped! It does not lay flat on the glass. It bows upwards from right where it is no longer protected by the metal reed holder I use. Wow! I dug out some Mitchell Lorie and a Rico plastic holder and will experiment with them. You guys are just a WEALTH of information...all useful!
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2012-12-09 00:01
Get yourself a Legere Signature of an appropriate strength and give up worrying about these problems!!! I did; what a relief! (but I do like Rico Reserve Classics in cane).
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-09 00:46
Are you using the same strength Legere Signature as you are the Rico Reserve Classic?
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2012-12-09 02:20
I find them pretty close, but perhaps the 2.75 Sig is more like the Reserve after broken in. Legere will exchange the reed for a $3 fee if you feel the reed is wrong strength. They are pretty darned good tho!
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2012-12-09 02:23
I was comparing 3.0 to 2.75 but yes pretty close; check the Legere website for comparison with other makers etc
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Author: Vova Doob(UA)
Date: 2012-12-09 10:44
Roxann, few years I had this problem when I studied at college and at school.
Those time I played Vandoren traditional reeds #3.
Your problem can be resolved (possibly) if you`ll prepare your reeds. For all who asks me about reeds I tell to prepare them before playing.
Buy a box of reeds, try them all, choose all that are good enough to play and play long notes and exercises on all of them. But not more than one hour per reed. And if at one day you "prepare" 2 reeds, after one week you`ll have enough reeds to play month or two.
Also, if your breathing in development, problems with reeds may depends of it.
There are many brands of reeds and all of them are good, but I start to play on australia vintage reeds, they are hand finished, 8/10 reeds from box are good for me, and cane is the best I ever tried. minimum 10 years of reserve.
Volodymyr Piddubnyk
Selmer Series 9
Vanoren 5RV lyre
Versa
Australia Vintage (XL) #3
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-10 02:44
I managed to flatten out my reed by wetting it, setting my sewing machine on top of the shoulder of the reed, and leaving it over night. It did flatten it out. However, now it plays really flat...so now I have a whole new problem to deal with. Thank goodness my lesson is tomorrow. I hope my teacher can help. And I'll be sure to share with her everything I've learned from all of you the past 3 days. You've ALL been a tremendous help. And if I can figure out which Rico or Vandoren reed holder to buy...the pictures and explanation on-line are not very good...I'll be able to prevent warping in the future.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-10 17:11
Roxanne, I hope you're not going to tell your teacher that you learned to set a sewing machine on top your reeds here ;^). I think the value of *lightly* pressing a reed is to prevent it from warping, once it's warped I think sanding is the best option (others may disagree).
Karl, I dry my reeds like you do flat side up, and try not to get them too wet, but I still have warping problems with about 50 percent of my reeds. How long do dry them before you put them in the cases?
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-10 17:23
Sometimes until I use them next. Certainly overnight. Keep in mind the ones I'm currently using (in rotation - 4 or 5) go into my reed case (on their edges). The ones I leave on my desk to dry are ones that I've just tried or am breaking in and don't have room for in the holder with my current reeds. So I can leave them flat-side-up on my desk indefinitely.
Karl
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-10 17:52
Aha! therein lies my problem, I'm putting them away much too soon. I need to find a dedicated space where is it's safe to leave reeds out.
As for getting reeds home, I'm going to experiment with a Rico plastic reed holder, the type that comes with some rico reeds, and have the 2 crescent shaped holes on the top. if the reed is flipped over, the flat side will be facing the crescent shape holes, and get more ventilation. The only potential problem is that the reed contacts two rails which may cause some warping. ( I've done a Google search of the Gonzalez holders and can't find them anywhere, not even at Muncy winds.)
FWIW. growing up and playing the clarinet in the '60's, I never had this problem. I stored my reeds in cardboard containers, after wiping them off on the table of the mouthpiece. The only time I remember having a bad reed was the occasional chipped one in the box. (And I'm talking orange box Rico's, the only type of reed that I knew to exist!) Is my memory playing tricks on me or was I incredibly lucky?
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2012-12-11 02:08)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-10 20:04
You're right - they seem to have disappeared from Muncy's site, too. I'm disappointed.
Karl
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Author: Bluevenus1015
Date: 2012-12-11 00:56
this is a possibility:
before you put the clarinet together, you have to put the reed in your mouth. this wets it with your saliva. then when it comes to the mouthpiece, you have to put the reed on. if the reed isn't wet enough, it won't make a sound.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-12-18 03:41
Laurie, I would bet that storing them in the paper holders they come in allows them to dry evenly from both sides, thereby preventing warping. I've started allowing my reeds to dry upside down for about 24 hours then storing them in their original paper holders. Only time will tell if this is going to work or not. Meanwhile, I've asked Santa for a reed holder that has a built-in humidifier in it (Wood Wind and Brass Wind carries exactly what I want).
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Author: morbius
Date: 2012-12-18 14:10
Humidity is a huge factor in how well a reed will work. The others are the profile (how symmetrical is a given reed... my experience is that most commercial reeds are significantly out of balance, which is one reason most don't work well) and the quality of the cane. Reeds have a life span. The fibers making up a reed change over time when played regularly. As they harden, they will become better in most cases (if they showed promise to begin with). Therefore, it is wise to delay final adjustment until at least a week of playing time has elapsed. I have found that the initial wetting of a reed does not put the reed in playing condition. A much clearer picture of how the reed will perform will be a second playing a day later. Because of this, it is a good idea to play EVERYDAY on reeds you hope to be using in the near future. If you live in a dry climate, IT IS IMPARITIVE that you store your reeds in some sort of humidifier.... Vandoren makes a great one, or you can make your own from on line directions.
John Dorch
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-29 17:39
A new observation. I have started leaving out reeds as Karl suggested, I seem to have less warping, which in my reeds I have always considered a side to side bending, usually with high outer rails. On more careful inspection I have found a different problem, I'll call is "bowing", I have two reeds that are bending tip to tail, noticeably high in the middle when I look at them on a flat surface. My former practice of putting them in the reed case would have forced them to stay flatter, I think. Maybe there's something to be said for leaving them on the mouthpiece....or setting a sewing machine on top of them.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-12-29 19:39
Laurie, that's completely out of my experience - I don't think I've ever had a reed bow that way (that I've noticed) as a result of drying it in or out of a case, so I can't really comment on what to do about it.
I'm not sure what "noticeably high in the middle" means - when you lay the reed on a flat surface are the ends on the surface and middle bowed away from it, or the opposite? Are you noticing this after you've wet the reed or before? How does it affect the play-ability of the reed? If the center is a little bowed away from a flat plane, the ligature may actually flatten it. Many French mouthpieces are made with a concave area across the table *in theory* to provide more bounce to the response when the ligature pushes the reed down into the depression. So with many mouthpieces, the reed doesn't sit flat against the table to begin with.
If the middle of the reed sits on the table and the ends are pulled up away from it, I can imagine there would be response issues similar to the more common longitudinal warping.
Have you checked to be sure the reeds aren't warped in the way you describe *before* you dry them (which would be a result of stress while playing them, not warping while drying them)? I have had reed vamps bend toward the mouthpiece from playing on them, especially if I've gotten tired and start biting toward the end of a session.
Karl
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-12-30 04:48
Good points. The reeds were laying on the flat side, the tip and tail on the flat surface, the center part slightly elevated. I put them back in the Rico IV case a couple of days ago, after they had dried at least 24 hrs. The Mitchell Lurie is now completely flat, the Rico Reserve classic has a very slight bow. I pulled out some new reeds as you suggested. I looked at two out of each box: the Grand Concerts and Mitchell Luries were all flat, the Rico Reserve classics were slighly bowed, virtually the same bow as the one I stored in the reed case. I will continue to monitor this to see if the playability is affected. You could be right, even if bowed the ligature may flatten them enough so that this is not a problem.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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