 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-03-03 22:24
I have a great boosey 2-20. Plays exceptionally well and in tune, yet I watch ebay and that model seems to fetch only 50 or 60 dollars. I had mine completely overhauled by David Spiegelthal and what a great job he did.
I think the 2-20 model is equivalent to any "E" class Buffet, yet it seems they are avoided lke the plague.
Any one have a thought on why that is?
The wood is exceptional, keywork is very nice, it's a big bore, nice sound.
I just can't figure it.
JG
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-03-04 02:11
John,
A lot of parents shop for student clarinets on ebay, and since most of them know nothing about clarinets in the first place, they go with whatever the band teacher recommends. The teachers are recommending Yamahas, Buffets, Selmers, Noblets, etc....so those are the
ones that get the bids.
I've seen plenty of well-used Yamaha 20's and Buffet B12's go for over $200 while perfectly good lesser-known wooden horns get almost no bids.
I remember when you had your Boosey listed for sale last year,
and even with a complete overhaul you couldn't even get enough
bids to get your money back out of it. Bummer ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Sue
Post Edited (2005-03-04 02:14)
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2005-03-04 05:48
Could it be that these instruments 2-20, Imperial 926, Symph 1010, allegedly had intonation issues - most of the players of 1010's I sit beside, are really conscious of several notes that are way out and take avoiding action. So is demand for them low for this reason ?
What is apparent though, is that these players usually stick with them for the lovely tone they can produce.
RT
BobT
Post Edited (2005-03-04 06:34)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-04 13:25
They are not being avoided. The prices are even higher now with the exchange rate....
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-03-04 18:19
While I much appreciate John's kind words, he failed to mention some important points. His 2-20, like the Booseys I play myself, was modified with moderate tonehole undercutting and probably a bit of tonehole work to correct intonation problems -- also, some of the Booseys have needed the recently-discussed 'resonance' vent hole in the bell. Plus, all the Booseys I've worked on get keywork improvements such as thinning of the excessively-fat sliver keys, throat "A" key, and register key. In 'stock' from, most of the B&H clarinets I've tried were a bit stuffy and fuzzy, and had some intonation issues and clunky keywork. As such, they're worth about what they're selling for on eBay.
Had B&H done these relatively simple things at the factory, they would have had an excellent line of 'no-excuse' clarinets and would probably still be producing them. IMHO.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-04 19:04
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> While I much appreciate John's kind words, he failed to mention
> some important points. His 2-20, like the Booseys I play
> myself, was modified with moderate tonehole undercutting and
> probably a bit of tonehole work to correct intonation problems
> -- also, some of the Booseys have needed the recently-discussed
> 'resonance' vent hole in the bell. Plus, all the Booseys I've
> worked on get keywork improvements such as thinning of the
> excessively-fat sliver keys, throat "A" key, and register key.
> In 'stock' from, most of the B&H clarinets I've tried were a
> bit stuffy and fuzzy, and had some intonation issues and clunky
> keywork. As such, they're worth about what they're selling for
> on eBay.
>
> Had B&H done these relatively simple things at the factory,
> they would have had an excellent line of 'no-excuse' clarinets
> and would probably still be producing them. IMHO.
Dave,
In your opinion, would the average cost of a B&H (let's say the above stated 60 dollars) and paying for these modifications (I don't know how much they are) all equate to a good clarinet for the final cost? Cause if so, then we'd know that there's a valuable resource out there waiting to be tapped.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-03-04 19:23
Darn....I should'a known. Thanks dave for the clarification. I knew you adjusted the keys and undercut the holes, I just was not aware that Boosey shoulda done it initially.
The clarinet plays great however thanks to you.....and 'specially with the custom Pomarico crystal MPC Riccardo made for it.
But still can't figure why the Boosey's avoided. The wood is exceptional and ......I like the sound.
PS....anyone needing clarinet work.....Dave S., .....is the man....
JG....the clarinator
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-03-04 20:32
Alexi,
I've been suggesting just what you've deduced, for a few years now --- but most players are out of their 'comfort zones' with used instruments, especially when not marked "Buffet". So how's about you, John and I just keep our little secret to ourselves, eh?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-04 20:36
lol. Sure thing there Dave! Besides, last thing I want is competition when bidding on a used instrument. Especially if I brought it upon myself!!!!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-03-05 04:27
Personally....I find the B & H 2-20 to be a really good clarinet. I have an
R-13....Leblanc LL....and a metal SILVER KING and the 2-20 stands up to them all. It is as Dave says....."our little secret"......if you can get one for a good price, it's worth sending to Dave for an expert servicing. He'll give you the $ amount and it's more than fair considering all that he does. You will then have a nice.....no....great intermediate (touching on pro) horn that will last a long while. Matter of fact....Dave did the best overhaul of a clarinet I've ever had. thanks dave.
JG.......the clarinator
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Author: JoeMich
Date: 2005-03-05 14:51
Have a Selmer series 9 that I wanted Dave to restore for me last year. It was right after the change in his email address. When I was finally able to contact him, he told me he was no longer working on instruments, ...... mouthpieces only. Constraints of his new job didn't allow time for this sort of work. Perhaps we've lost this resource?? ..... or has the situation changed???
Joe.
[ Dave's email address is listed in his profile. Contact him off-line...GBK ]
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-12 22:21
I would like to know what pro models boosey and hawkes has, since someone offered to sell me an A for $750, but didn't know if it was a pro model...or what model it was for that matter. I know, besides how unproffessional that sounds, I would like to know what pro models B&H has so I know when i try it out.
How bad does the intonation tend to be on these instruments? I don't want to buy something for $750 and then have it turn out to be horribly out of tune.
-Lindsie
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-12 23:51
Lindsie,
I believe the designations of B&H clarinets are as follows.
Pro - called the "1010" or the "Emporer" clarinet
Intermediate - "2-20" or "Edgeware"
Student - "1-10" or "Regent"
I'm pretty sure that's the way it goes. But do some checking around on the net and the board to be sure (and maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-13 00:04
music_is_life said:
> How bad does the intonation tend to be on these instruments?
As we've said MANY times before:
Clarinets don't play in tune. Great musicians who play the clarinet play in tune.
Anyone who thinks there is any such thing as "set it and forget it" in terms of clarinet equipment and playing in tune has no idea what it means to play in tune.
No one "plays in tune" just like that. Anyone who is in tune all the time is working hard at it every second he or she is playing.
If you aren't concentrating on intonation DURING EVERY NOTE YOU PLAY, I'll bet big money you play out of tune a lot of the time. Probably way way out of tune...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-13 00:12
GBK wrote:
> music_is_life said:
>
> > How bad does the intonation tend to be on these instruments?
>
> As we've said MANY times before:
>
> Clarinets don't play in tune, great musicians who play the
> clarinet play in tune.
>
> Anyone who thinks there is any such thing as "set it and forget
> it" in terms of clarinet equipment and playing in tune have no
> idea what it means to play in tune.
>
> No one "plays in tune" just like that. Anyone who is in tune
> all the time is working hard at it every second he or she is
> playing.
>
> If you aren't concentrating on intonation DURING EVERY NOTE YOU
> PLAY, I'll bet big money you play out of tune a lot of the
> time. Probably way way out of tune...GBK
Quote:
As to whether Boosey and Hawkes are good instruments, as with any
instrument, that will be a matter of opinion. Opinions are often not
arrived at rationally. They were one of the better quality brands at the
time. Those produced under the Boosey & Hawkes name were basically a larger
bore instrument than is popular today. That doesn't make them bad. Some
people love the resulting sound and some don't. The larger bore makes
tuning a little more difficult but you are rewarded with a big, rich sound
that is difficult to achieve on the more popular small bore instruments.
Today Boosey & Hawkes no longer produces clarinets under their own name. In
the 1980s, they bought out Buffet and dropped their own line in favor of
continuing the production of the Buffets.
and
Quote:
Could it be that these instruments 2-20, Imperial 926, Symph 1010, allegedly had intonation issues - most of the players of 1010's I sit beside, are really conscious of several notes that are way out and take avoiding action. So is demand for them low for this reason ?
What is apparent though, is that these players usually stick with them for the lovely tone they can produce.
as well as:
Quote:
While I much appreciate John's kind words, he failed to mention some important points. His 2-20, like the Booseys I play myself, was modified with moderate tonehole undercutting and probably a bit of tonehole work to correct intonation problems -- also, some of the Booseys have needed the recently-discussed 'resonance' vent hole in the bell. Plus, all the Booseys I've worked on get keywork improvements such as thinning of the excessively-fat sliver keys, throat "A" key, and register key. In 'stock' from, most of the B&H clarinets I've tried were a bit stuffy and fuzzy, and had some intonation issues and clunky keywork. As such, they're worth about what they're selling for on eBay.
Had B&H done these relatively simple things at the factory, they would have had an excellent line of 'no-excuse' clarinets and would probably still be producing them. IMHO.
obviously I will tune my clarinet to a tuner and/or standing pitch and think about tone/intonation. I am just making mention of some things that cannot be helped! Sometimes clarinets themselves have intonation issues that are no fault of the player and one should not ahve to adjust to that, especially if they have another clarinet that doesn't have those issues, because it makes their life twice as hard. Hence my concern about Boosey and Hawkes being known for intonation issues.
I DO NOT just put my clarinet together and think nothing of tone. I am insulted that you suggested that was what I was inferring... I always get top marks on my tone and my clarinet teacher AND band directors say that I am very fussy about MPs and reeds, but I also have good tone quality and tend to have good pitch. But, like I said before, I am concerned about getting an instrument that might have intonation issues.
-Lindsie
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-13 00:23
I think what GBK is pointing at is that pretty much most intonation "issues" could be cleared up if they were simply practiced and worked on. True, it'd be nice to get a clarinet that requires a lot LESS work to play it in tune (one that works well with you naturally rather than you having to adjust to every note), but it's rare.
If B&H horns were good enough for the top professionals of yesteryear, I'm sure that we can still consider them good enough to play on today.
In any event, the best advice for ANY clarinet, old/new, is to try before you buy. So if you can get that trial period on that A clarinet, give it a whirl.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-13 00:38
music_is_life said:
> Sometimes clarinets themselves have intonation issues
> that are no fault of the player and one should
> not have to adjust to that
No.
Great musicians know the strengths and weaknesses of their particular instrument, albeit Buffet, Boosey & Hawkes, or any other. They have learned how to solve the inherent problems.
I wish I had a dollar for every student who only knows one fingering for F6 and uses nothing else. How about the students who continue to exclusively use "junior high school G" as their fingering for G6?
Knowing how and when to adjust intonation of individual notes, whether by alternate fingerings or embouchure/air speed changes is a skill which is imperative to becoming a successful musician.
If your teacher is not addressing these issues, you are missing an important aspect of clarinet playing ...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-13 00:58
okay, I have kind of compiled a list that I have found from various sources, but I am not sure of it's validity or how complete it is, so please, add to or correct it!
* one source says the 1010 is "Imperial" and another says it's "emperor"- which is it?? and that it is a pro and one of the best models B&H has...
* the "edgeware" [ this is a common misspelling and makes it hard to find when you search - it's "edgware". Looks wrong, though, doesn't it? Mark C. ] ...is that the "1-20"?- intermediate
* "fogware"- ?
* "10-10" (is this different from the 1010? or am I paying attention to details? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) )- ?
* "emperor 926"- ?
* "2-20" or "london 2-20" (wood)- is this an "edgeware"?? -intermediate
* "4-20"- ?
* "1-20"- "regent"(plastic) - student
* "stratford"- ?
-Lindsie
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Author: Keith Ferguson
Date: 2005-03-13 16:53
Music_is_life: I'll try to answer some of your questions. I commend you on your determination to understand the B&H lineup.
My 1010 (manufactured in 1960) shows the number on the bell and the upper joint (below the logo) and on the warranty card as "1010". No hyphen. I think the hyphenation came later with models like the 2-20 and 8-10, and people may have begun applying it to the 1010 designation as well.
The upper joint and bell show the word "Symphony" in capital letters at the top of the logo, and show the word "Imperial" (below a crown) in the middle of the logo. The warranty card, which was filled out by hand, describes the intrument as a "Bb Clarinet 1010", and the style as "Symphony". The case has a silk strip running across an upper corner with the words "Boosey & Hawkes Imperial".
If this is a typical example, I think all you can conclude is that in general the words "Symphony" and "Imperial" were both part of the 1010's description. I am aware of "Imperial" also being used in association with the 926 line, which had a slightly narrower bore than the 1010, and which was made in both wood and hard rubber. The latter was intended for those poor souls working in military bands in the far flung parts of the British Empire.
The 1010 was consider the top of the line as far as orchestral playing was concerned. I believe the 926 was of comparable quality but possibly directed at the band market.
Finally, my recollection of the Edgware was that it was available both in ebonite and wood, and that the name is derived from a B&H manufacturing facility on Edgware Road in London. My recollection is that the Edgware model or models predate the 1-20, 2-20, etc.
Post Edited (2005-03-13 17:14)
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-13 20:38
alright, I have been checking out the archives on this site and have seen both good and bad reviews of B&H. So I am neutral.
the only thing that worries me is that someone said that because of the B&Hs larger bore, one should use a more open MP. If I try it out on my close tip MP (model D Hite), will that bias my opinion, since technically I should be playing on something more open??
I realize that I need to work on good tone quality and use my ears and adjust and etc. etc., but I know that having the right setup contributes to tone quality, and I don't want to have the "wrong" MP for this clarinet.
-Lindsie
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Author: Keith Ferguson
Date: 2005-03-13 22:46
Music_is_life: Some people believe it doesn't matter. My experience is that intonation is better if the mouthpiece is designed for the clarinet, in my case the 1010. The best luck I had with a "mismatch" was when I used a Vandoren series 13 mouthpiece with my 1010, but it still wasn't ideal.
There are mouthpiece makers that make mouthpieces suited to large bore clarinets. Peter Eaton (a sponsor) is one, and Edward Pillinger is another. John Gibson indicates in his post above that Pomarico is a third.
More to the point - I think it would be very cumbersome to try to operate a large bore A clarinet as part of a pair with a conventional bore Bb. Not only will you likely need two mouthpieces, you will be dealing with two clarinets that have different playing characteristics.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-14 02:48
The reason clarinetists avoid Boosey is because Boosey does not have that great P.R. dept. that the other makers do. There are no adds for "the wonderful Boosey-Hawkes clarinet". Not too many people even on forums like this have too much to say about Boosey clarinets. The subject matter morphs into bore size and mouthpieces, intonation and other favorite clarinets. It seems to me that sales technique sells more than actual fact, and they do not have, or need that sales technique like a company like Selmer that pushes how great their BT or CT was and "we are still making clarinets as fine as those" additude.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2008-09-05 00:23
this isn't quite correct. The top of the line was originally the Imperial which came first as the 926 and later as the 1010. The designations are based on the bore. Next was the Emperor which was also a pro level clarinet. Recognize these by the absence of a metal band on the bell. The intermediate model was the Edgware - named for the location of the B&H factory - and the student model was the Regent. These last two came in wood originally then in plastic. Other models from earlier times were the 1-10 and 2-20 although thse designations appear to have been used more in the USA than in theUK and some of these models definitely overlap the timeframe of the four named above. B&H clarinets are like other B&H instruments thoroughly dependable and quality instruments - although they may not feel like french or american instruments. B&H had many skilled workers especially after acquiring Besson. The only real criticism is that the keys are pot-metal and break ruining the horn completely. This is somewhat true. Production btween 1940 and 1946 was quite low and materials available for musical instruments were of low quality. This was because of a conflict known as world war II when everything was in short supply and the good stuff went to military production first - if it was even available. I suspect that B&H had a supply of clarinet wood on hand at the start of W II which may have sufficed, but not metal for keys etc. I have a London-made Besson clarinet, wood with normal silver keys that was made in 1940 so the pot metal hadn't taken over at that point. I'd say that a B&H clarinet, other than the regent, if it was from before 1940 or after 1946 or 1947 would be a steal at current eBay prices.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-09-05 02:03
I have (and have had) a number of 1960s and 1970s-era Boosey & Hawkes clarinets, and they are mostly excellent players after some ergonomic modifications are made to make them less clunky in feel (mainly narrowing of the throat "A", register, and both sliver keys), and some moderate undercutting of the toneholes to eliminate stuffiness. Quality of the wood is generally excellent (far better than most Buffets, in my opinion) and the keywork is made of decent metal (NOT pot metal!). And the nickel plating seems to hold up better than on R-13s.
Mine are Edgwares and Series 2-20s (the latter with the handy extended lower r.h. trill key and cross-hatched l.h. F/C spatula), by far the most widely available non-beginner models in the US. The 2-20 is the clarinet I usually turn to when I want a reliable, in-tune and comfortable instrument -- somehow it just feels and sounds right.
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-09-07 00:49
Interesting question, John (original post). I have found the same thing to be true about the Buffet C12. It's as close to an R13 as one can get, plays beautifully-yet goes for a fraction of the cost on ebay. I have asked here and the only response I can get is that the C12 only came in a b-flat and most professional players like to have matching horns when they buy an A. I still continue to say that if you want an outstanding B-flat horn, get a C12 and have it professionally reworked. You will not be disappointed and you will have saved alot of money. Even the E11's, etc. seem to bring more money! I'm amazed!
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-05-28 11:47
I just played on a pair of "Symphony 1010" clarinets from the estate of Frank Gurr, formerly Principal Clarinet of the NZSO. These instruments were manufactured pre 1960s (don't have the serial numbers so can't get more exact than that) and had the most beautiful tone quality. There were major intonation problems at either end of the instrument that I am fairly sure were a product of me using a small bored mouthpiece- I didn't get the chance to play them with a large bore mouthpiece.
Gorgeous instruments.
dn
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-05-28 20:23
Sfalexi says:
If B&H horns were good enough for the top professionals of yesteryear, I'm sure that we can still consider them good enough to play on today.
True to an extent. But you have to ask why almost all the top professionals stopped playing on them (in the UK, where they used to dominate). I know enough professionals to be sure that it was the intonation (and I have personal experience that matches, owning both R13s and 1010s). Even where the B+H intruments had been tweaked by an expert, the internal consistency of their scale was never as good as Buffets. In the end, people got tired of fighting their equipment. Of course, the best people played very well in tune, but you didn't notice how hard they were having to work. Buffet tuning is not perfect, but it's closer to the ideal, and gives a good player a higher foundation to work from. If you listen to 1960s UK orchestral recordings, when B+H ruled, you can hear that standards of intonation are not quite at a modern level - so the corrections people applied to their 1010s weren't 100% successful.
I suspect this is a generational thing. Buffet learned to make a clarinet that played in tune for the first time in the mid 1950s, and up till that time there was no huge advantage in switching from B+H instruments. By the mid 1980s, Buffet ruled the UK: it just took that long for players unwilling to switch to be replaced by the younger generation.
But of course it's hard to sound the same on a Buffet as on a 1010. Many Brits feel that something culturally important was lost in the quest for better intonation, and this is probably behind the growing popularity of modern wide-bore instruments such as Eaton and Rossi.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-28 22:33
Too many clarinet snobs that won't consider anything other than a top line Buffet.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-05-28 22:55
GLHopkins wrote:
> Too many clarinet snobs that won't consider anything other than
> a top line Buffet.
Sad but true. Buffet has one heck of a marketing department. I've even had non-musicians tell me that I should buy an R13 because they are the best clarinets.
Personally I'll stick with my B&H 2-20 that Dave S. overhauled for me.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2010-05-29 01:49
This thread is very interesting; I've known about B&H clarinets since the late 1950's and still have the B&H 8-10 that my parents bought for me from the Bandstand Music Store in Westfield NJ. Especially interesting is that the store supplied (for rental) B&H ebonite clarinets to new 5th grade students who signed up to play clarinet in the band. So the majority of the clarinet players in the 5th grade band played B&H! At the end of the school year, my parents bought me the wooden 8-10, which I played through the 8th grade; it cost $200.
The band director was a professional clarinetist, with a fine pedigree (Bellison/Bonade); I studied with him. During the rental period he took me off the Claude Lakey mouthpiece. By the midpoint of 8th grade, he suggested that I upgrade to a Buffet...I would be laughed at if I played a B&H professionally!
By dint of luck, I wrote to Linx & Long in New York City and W. Hans Moennig in Philadelphia. Jack Linx sent me a terse but friendly typewritten note, inviting me to the store to look and try the professionally selected models; Hans Moennig sent a hand-written letter that laid out specific commitments for a set price. Moennig's price was lower than what Buffet would cost locally, so my parents paid him $243.75 for a new Buffet that he'd set up. It was wonderful--in tune, just right resistance, easy transition between registers.
A few years ago, I retrieved the B&H from my parents' house and sent it to David Spiegelthal. Well, he transformed the 8-10. He's told you his approach. He's modest about his work and modest in what he charges. I've had my share of adversity in life, but can't believe my good fortune in finding W Hans Moennig and David Spiegelthal. I
If I played professionally, I doubt that anybody would laugh me off the stage because of the clarinet I played; I'd wager that people would ask me how I got my clarinet to play so evenly and how each tone could sound so clear.
I can't say why B&H doesn't enjoy the reputation of Big 4, but I will pit the Spiegalized 8-10 against anybody else's brand.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-05-31 01:37
This isn't strictly true. There was a period during and immediately following WW2 when B&H used pot-metal for the keywork on some of their base models, mainly the Regent, 77 and 78. Other models used what appear to be nickel steel or silver plated brass keywork. I have an Edgware from the 50's (my first clarinet) and an Edgware stencil from the 60's (Labelled "Cambridge" from the British Band Instrument Company), both with excellent nickel steel keywork and a late Emperor with silver-plated brass keywork. All have the fat keys, and have been re-profiled with a dremel. All play well, the Edgware has a stuffy Bflat but the others don't.
Tony F.
"Author: chris moffatt (---.rcmdva.east.verizon.net - ISP in Richmond, VA United States)
Date: 2008-09-05 00:23
The only real criticism is that the keys are pot-metal and break ruining the horn completely. This is somewhat true. Production btween 1940 and 1946 was quite low and materials available for musical instruments were of low quality. This was because of a conflict known as world war II when everything was in short supply and the good stuff went to military production first - if it was even available."
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-01 12:15
Only since B&H stopped production in the mid-'80s and became the main UK importer/distributor for Buffet clarinets did Buffet suddenly flood the market as there were no more B&H instruments being built. Buffet being a volume producer (and Schreiber making the student instruments) could supply the instruments with no problem.
Prior to that, B&H clarinets were the most popular in the UK as they offered the entire range from plastic student instruments (and stencil instruments plus other imports) through to the 1010.
No clarinet maker is the best (no matter if they themselves claim to be) - that's a matter of opinion. Popularity doesn't mean the best, it only means popular. Syphilis, smallpox and bubonic plague were once popular - but doesn't mean everyone wanted it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-06-01 13:04
Forgive me if I've mentioned this before, but I may be one of the few users of this board who has always played B&H instruments. I started on a Regent, first a school one and then a secondhand one which we found through the small ads in the local paper. Personnally I still think that the secondhand Regents which can still sometimes be found, if in good condition, are better than some of the more recent student instruments.
Then I moved on to a pair of Emperors. Personnally I would not say that these were professional level instruments - more of an intermediate or upgrade level. They were very wild intonation-wise but at least they were wood and at least I had a pair. In fact they were so sharp a lot of the time that I had a tuning ring fitted in one of the barrels so that, in effect, I was permanently pulled out. These saw me through about 8 years into adulthood and past grade 8.
For the last 20 odd years I have played on a pair of fairly elderly 1010s which I got secondhand (again) via my teacher at the time. I am happy with the sound I make on them (when I am playing at or near my best!) and I believe that such intonation problems as there may be I have got some way towards learning to cope with as you have to with any instrument. My repairer was saying only last week that they were nice instruments.
However, my comments are, FWIW, that I would second the comment that, beyond a certain point, instruments do not play in tune, players do! In particular, with the greatest of respect, we all need to use the instruments we all have like the oral cavity, air speed and our ears!
Secondly, if you are going to believe blindly that any instrument of any particular make (which shall be nameless) must automatically be better than any instrument not of that make, you could be missing some great options so that's your loss. As I am on record as saying in other thread on this board, when I can afford to upgrade, l have every intention of trying a lot of different brands and models and I'm open minded about what to get. I will admit that I heard a friend doing a university assessment recital last week on Toscas and I thought that she sounded fabulous, especially towards the bottom of the range, but that was her on one particular pair and I might not feel the same about what I am offered, played by me, at a later date.
To sum up, if anyone out there is looking for the holy grail of clarinet set ups which will automatically make them the most wonderful player in the world just by putting their hands in their pockets (oops, that's a slightly odd metaphor but you know what I mean), prepare to be disappointed. Reasonable equipment helps, aptitude is important but the vast majority of what good playing takes is hard work.
Happy playing though!
Vanessa.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-01 15:01
I've tried all manner of clarinets and can't find anything that betters what I already play - older large bore Selmers. So that's a saving of several thousand pounds for me as I'm not in the market for anything new or different - I'm sticking with what I know.
I've owned seveal B&H clarinets including a 1010 (still have a Regent and a Marlborough), but had that snatched from my grasp when someone pretty much insisted in buying it off me on the spot after trying it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-06-03 21:27
Chris P: I also have an old large-bore Selmer (N series). The basic sound quality is very nice, and I enjoy practicing on it very much. But I wouldn't dare to use it in a decent wind section, since I know the tuning would stick out. The 12ths are so narrow that many notes in the lower register are incredibly sharp, requiring a lot of half-holing to bring them down - and this isn't something that's easy to do with the precision you want. From what I've read, this seems to be considered a generic problem with these older instruments with cylindrical bores and non-undercut tone holes. Do you not find you have this trouble?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-03 22:07
I do find the lower register on CTs to be on the sharp side, though not so much with the Series 9 (that's using the stock 67mm barrels for each instrument). Shame I shortened my M15 mouthpiece for use with my Series 9s as the set of Series 9*s I've got have short barrels (short for my liking as I prefer 67 or 68mm barrels), but I can get another M15 easier than sourcing a 67mm Series 9* barrel.
I've often found with B&H clarinets - the 'lower' models (Regent through to Imperial 926) are best in tune with themselves when the barrel (the 67mm one) is pulled out by 2mm, otherwise the throat notes are painfully sharp. The 'SHORT' barrel (probably around 62mm) is far too short to be of any use for me, and really throws the intonation out the window.
I read somewhere on Peter Eaton's site his clarinets are designed to be in tune with themselves with the barrel pulled out by 1mm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-06-03 23:34
That's true Chris re the Eaton clarinets, especially with a 64 barrel. Peter told me this himself and it's what I do.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-06-07 13:46
The "instruction manual" shipped with B&H clarinets in the 1950's definitely stated that the clarinet was designed to play at 440 with the barrel pulled out about 1/16" (1 - 1.5 mm) when fully warmed up.
Makes sense when an orchestral player often had to make quick switches from a warmed up Bb to a cold A and vice versa.
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Author: 2EQnxB
Date: 2012-11-14 21:02
I'm in my last year of high school(want to be a music teacher) and I've played the clarinet all the way through since gr.7, but I'm a lefty so I play with my left hand on the bottom notes. Just recently my music teacher told me that my positioning wasn't right and I wasn't allowed to play the way I do. Now I have to re-learn how to play.
What should I do???
Answers greatly appreciated.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2012-11-14 21:09
2EQnxB wrote:
> I'm in my last year of high school(want to be a music teacher)
> and I've played the clarinet all the way through since gr.7,
> but I'm a lefty so I play with my left hand on the bottom
> notes. Just recently my music teacher told me that my
> positioning wasn't right and I wasn't allowed to play the way I
> do. Now I have to re-learn how to play.
> What should I do???
> Answers greatly appreciated.
Listen to your teacher and play with the correct hand position before you attempt to pass along your bad habit to any future students.
Shame on your previous music teachers for not noticing over the past 4 years.
...GBK
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-11-14 22:18
2EQnxB wrote:
> I'm in my last year of high school(want to be a music teacher)
> and I've played the clarinet all the way through since gr.7,
> but I'm a lefty so I play with my left hand on the bottom
> notes. Just recently my music teacher told me that my
> positioning wasn't right and I wasn't allowed to play the way I
> do. Now I have to re-learn how to play.
> What should I do???
> Answers greatly appreciated.
>
I'll strongly second Glenn's advice. I'm not even sure how you play with your left hand on the bottom unless you have a specially designed clarinet with the keywork all reversed. Music teachers constantly need to deal with "I'm left-handed so I need to do everything opposite to the way right-handed people do them." Maybe - I won't even take a definite position here - brass instruments can be played effectively with the hands reversed. At least, redesigning horn or trumpet valves to accommodate it would be easier (I'll admit that a trombone slide can just be turned around). String instruments are designed acoustically and physically to be bowed with the RH and fingered with the left. For many years I taught strings as well as band winds and can't count how many string beginners wanted to reverse that. But the whole structure - internal as well as external - is designed to be played the standard way, and both hands must be effective. Clarinets have keys on the right side and keys on the left side in positions that are accessible when played RH on the bottom. If you reverse your hands, it's really hard to imagine how you work the lever keys or the top section trill keys effectively. How do you open throat G#/Ab?
If you're working with a specially redesigned instrument, your students won't have such instruments available, at least not at a cost most of their parents will support. Your modelling upside down will cause confusion and create a real problem for other left=handed students you teach. This is assuming you want to teach instrumental music.
Take the time now to relearn the standard way (you still need both hands and they need to be equally dexterous no matter which way you hold the instrument). And if you do end up teaching music, be forearmed with the reasons why your students should play that way from the start so they can avoid the headache you're facing.
Karl
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-11-14 23:19
I'm left handed and when I held a clarinet for the first time I needed to look at the instructions to find out how to hold it. There was absolutely no personal inclination/ instinct or preference to hold it one way or the other. I think being left or right handed is a non problem for a clarinetist.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-11-16 13:54
For what it's worth I'm JEALOUS of lefties playing (standard) clarinet with the standard fingers !!! With all the acrobatics required out of your left hand, I am frustrated as a 'righty' with my right hand "dead-lined" under the thumbrest.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-16 14:51
I'm with Paul there! If dexterity is to right-handedness, what's the equivalent term for left-handedness? Sinisterity?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2012-11-16 16:24
Lee Gibson insisted B&H's play "out of tune." He insisted Buffets from late 1930s to the R-13 played "out of tune."
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-11-16 19:55
Hey, I'm a leftie............... annoying if you have to cut things with right handed scissors as you trap your skin.
Back to the thread title: I think one of the great skills of playing well is to play anything thrown at you as near in tune as possible. Half-holing, adapting your embochure, using alternative fingerings........ it is fantastic fun :-). My Peter Eatons are a breeze as they are so well in tune but I can play my 1967 and 1973 1010s just as well in tune by compensating and they have the most amazing tone and a character all of their own!
This is probably something one would only admit to on a Friday night ........... but when I was younger and my husband was too............ our party piece was for me to play the 'pseudo flute' by getting him to lie back on my lap and for me to blow over his mouth ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif) We had many classical pieces in our repetoire that we could get perfectly in tune as he has perfect pitch and I could blast over anything with an aperture and get it to sound good. LOL :-)
Warning: Only try this with your trusted partner and when you have had at least one alcoholic beverage :-)
Post Edited (2012-11-16 20:09)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-11-16 23:11
One of the games my colleague and I used to play after a few Nutcrackers, back when the ballet still did 25 of them every December, was to see how much we could play left-handed. Avrahm Galper started playing left-handed. He had to switch eventually, of course, but from what I hear he retained a repertoire of things that could be played left handed.
A curiosity:
http://www.avrahm-galper.woodwind.org/left-handed.html
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