 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Park
Date: 2012-11-03 18:14
Attachment: photo.jpg (130k)
Hi, everyone. I am looking into buying a Buffet Prestige Low C 1193. My teacher has told me to look for the below "ring" or "groove" above the second lowest key of the clarinet when you identify a 1193. I have been talking to a seller and his "1193" does not have this groove. Does anybody know if Buffet stopped engraving a groove on the lower joint of the 1193s at certain point? According to the seller, his 1193 is the current line of 1193s on the market. Thank you and I look forward to your responses.
Sincerely,
Tony Park
p.s. Attached to this post is the photograph of the "groove" on my teacher's bass clarinet.
Post Edited (2012-11-03 18:16)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2012-11-03 19:58
They don't all have the groove. Mine doesn't. Get the serial number and go to Buffet's site and find out how old it is.
Other things to look for: 3 keys for low D, a hole in the bell...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-04 01:59
Buffet Prestige low C basses from 1999 through to around 2003 or 2004 didn't have this groove around the lower joint - my Prestige bass is from 2000 and hasn't got it.
Not even sure why they put it on them - I think it looks ugly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2012-11-04 04:19
Could it be that the bottom joint is no longer a solid piece of wood? Looks like an after market add on to me. My 1994 Buffet Prestige to low C has no mark like that and the lower joint is long enough to accommodate all the vents. No holes of any kind in my bell.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2012-11-04 04:20)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-04 05:02
Low C Prestige basses from 1999 onwards have a wide bell bow with the low Db tonehole (covered by the bell key) and the open low C vent on it. The one in this photo has the decorative turning around the lower joint:
https://www.saxquest.com/images/prod/BuffetBassClar4.jpg
And here's the wwbw listing for the Prestige bass:
http://www.wwbw.com/Buffet-Crampon-1193-Prestige-Low-C-Bass-Clarinet-475481-i1437556.wwbw
If the lower joint wasn't made from a single piece of wood, it would be better to do as Leblanc did with their low C basses and have a socket ring where the join is to add strength. It may not be much of an issue without the socket ring if the two sections are permanently glued together.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-04 06:58
I am not completely sure, but I think the newer ones have this "groove" because the lower joint is made of two different pieces of wood. By "newer" I mean from around 2004 as Chris wrote. Buffet changed a few cosmetic things over the years but the model is still the same. For example the "holders" of the adjusting screws also look slightly different on newer ones (newer than the "groove"). Bill's bass from 1994 is a different model.
Your teacher is wrong about identifying a 1193 by the groove.
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Author: Tony Park
Date: 2012-11-04 14:02
Thank you all for your comments. My teacher has also mentioned looking at the
6th right pinky key (low D) to verify a 1193. I just wanted to focus on the groove because that was something I wanted to learn more about.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-04 15:47
You've got three low D keys on the low C Prestige bass (1999 onwards) - one for the left pinky, one for the right pinky and another for the right thumb.
There are three right thumb keys in total - low D is to the left of the thumbhook baseplate and low Db/C# and low C are directly below the thumbhook baseplate.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2012-11-05 10:28
Hi,
As others have said, I suspect that the instruments with the groove have a lower joint made out of two pieces of wood, with the groove at the join.
In fact, it looks like these instruments might be made using the lower joint of the low Eb model 1183 (presumably with extra holes drilled in for the extra keywork), with an extension piece glued onto the end.
Based on available pictures, the low Eb 1183 model appears to have the lowest covered tone hole on the body of the lower joint, with low Eb being emitted from a vent hole on the bell:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/buffet-crampon-1183-prestige-low-eb-bass-clarinet
The "groove" low-c instruments could be based on the same lower joint, with two further keyed toneholes on the extension piece , and a final one on the bell. At least, that's consistent with the pictures
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-05 10:45
Getting a piece of grenadilla the length of a low C bass lower joint without any flaws in it is a pretty tall order - the lower joint of my Prestige bass has several worm holes in it that have been filled in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2012-11-06 02:48
Attachment: Buffet low C bass pre 1999.JPG (22k)
The lack of a right pinky low D does not also automatically mean it is not a Prestige bass...as Chris said, it became standard in 1999. Attached is a photo of a Buffet low C Prestige bass that clearly does NOT have the 3rd low D key, but is still very much a Prestige. If you're looking at an instrument from the 90s, it very well may not have either of the features that your teacher (erroneously) believes make it a Prestige.
Post Edited (2012-11-06 02:49)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-06 05:38
The previous model from earlier in the 90s was also called Prestige but it was a different model with several other significant differences other than the right pinky low D. The OP seems to be looking for the current model. It is this current model that has had a few small but essentially insignificant changes so far, but always had six right pinky keys (the changes are cosmetic). The previous model (in CocoboloKid's photo) is another option but just be aware that it is a different model regardless of whether it is called Prestige or not.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2012-11-07 15:43
Since I own one what was the model number for a 1994 Buffet Prestige to Low C? One of the most irritating differences of my Buffet from the newer versions is that small pivot screw design was changed and it took me forever to find the correct ones.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-07 15:56
I'd gladly see a return of the water key on the crook! I wish mine had this, but the current style Prestige basses (from 1999 onwards) don't have it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-08 05:50
I think it's not too difficult to install a water key, though I use a "manual system" i.e. turn the clarinet over
Re the previous model from early 90s, you can contact Buffet, they are usually very good at answering these types of questions.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-08 10:14
I usually remove the tuning slide/socket end of the crook to tip the water out, but a water key would be much better. I'd probably fit a Yamaha YBS-62 water key assembly to it if I had to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2012-11-09 19:04
The problem with this is that Buffet introduced a new model bass clarinet (around 1998, I think) without changing the model number. They did the same thing with the alto clarinet a couple of years earlier.
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-11-10 02:33
In addition to the "R13 Prestige" Bass clarinets, there is/was also a model "RC Prestige" Bass that had slightly different key work [and different bore/tuning]- when my colleague took his RC Bass to a clarinetfest a few years back he found a number of people in the USA had not seen them before and were unaware they were being made. This could be adding to the confusion.... dn
Post Edited (2012-11-10 08:23)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-11-12 13:26
My 1193 is less than a year old, has the groove, but the joint is NOT two pieces of wood. Perhaps the groove is to preserve that as an option, but I've seen several 1193s with the groove and none appeared to be 2-piece. The Greenline 1193, though, does not have the groove.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-12 13:55
>> has the groove, but the joint is NOT two pieces of wood. <<
You emphasize that it is not, how do you know for sure? Anything other than that it doesn't look like it's two pieces?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-12 14:27
The one I saw that had this groove was a single piece lower joint as the grain pattern was continuous right across the groove, so maybe they do this on both single and two piece lower joints.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-12 14:52
That's definitely possible. To check, one thing you can do is look through the lower joint, directed to a decent light, groove end to your eye. Check for a tiny ring inside where the groove is.
I guess it's possible that some have this connection done nicer that maybe it's (almost?) impossible to see a ring inside.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-11-13 03:02
>> has the groove, but the joint is NOT two pieces of wood. <<
You emphasize that it is not, how do you know for sure? Anything other than that it doesn't look like it's two pieces?
>>
I'm a woodworker also. The effort required to match two pieces of wood so closely that the grain matches perfectly and undetectably around 360 degrees, including through the groove, would be googleplex greater than the trouble to find a longer piece to begin with. The "doesn't look like it's two pieces" test is not trivial. If someone has one that looks like one that looks like two pieces, then we'll have a discussion.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-13 03:52
>> If someone has one that looks like one that looks like two pieces, then we'll have a discussion. <<
Some I've seen have a clear connection ring inside if you check in the way I described. Can you check yours this way? If it was one piece there would be no connection ring there. I just checked the outside of one which has this connection ring and from the outside it is pretty much impossible to tell it's two pieces.
It's entirely possible they make both one and two piece lower joints and add the groove to all so they look the same.
Post Edited (2012-11-13 03:58)
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