 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-10-25 08:55
The accepted wisdom is that R13's made in the same year at the same factory can be of widely varying quality. Pitch problems can be evident on some and barely an issue on others. Tonal quality too varies widely. Of course, I would expect that wood variability is the one factor that is hard for any manufacturer to pin down, but the Buffet degree of variability is not something we attribute to other companies like Leblanc or Yamaha. After all, the holes on an R13 are all drilled in the exact same place and the bore is precisely measured on all R13's made in a certain year. You don't imagine that just because they were made in Paris that the tech came in that day with a vastly different concept of what a clarinet should be based on his French temperment or what was happening in his love life the previous night. These are, after all musical instruments and not products of French restaurants whipped up by emotional chefs whipped up to meet the dinner rush coming off the Champs Elysee. Now, I wonder if my 1980's vintage R13 is one of the choice ones. The wood is crack free. It was declared leak free by no less than Wesley Rice and it's had his spring modification done to it. It came with all cork pads in the upper section and it measures fairly on the money for pitch, but is it one of the really good ones? I haven't played more than four Buffets in my life and this one seemed like a bargain at the time being clean, obviously well cared for and under a $1000.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-10-25 11:14
>> the bore is precisely measured on all R13's made in a certain year. <<
The upper joint bore is made by a human holding it (with barrel attached) and shoving it on the reamer, which is held at one end with significant runout, until it reaches a mark (i.e. they eye it). Hardly precise...
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-10-25 13:16
So therefore if the person boring out the instrument was not concentrating because of a distraction or even preoccupied with a personal problem that was affecting his emotional state of mind then there is a chance that the instrument bore would not be precise.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-10-25 13:31
Well also, wood 'settles.' That is, once the dimensions are imposed (precise or not) there is still the variability that comes from the wood undergoing more changes as it weathers and is played. We had the advantage of a Morre Backun video with Ricardo Morales to illustrate the point where Ricardo goes back to complain about some issues with pitch that came up as he played the horn. Morre, after measuring the size and shape of some tone holes (in this case, in the upper joint) then had to re-ream two holes (if I remember correctly) back into round and size.
This is an argument for Greenline material (or more experimentation with similar such media) since the Greenline is much more stable and intonation from one such horn to the other is MUCH, MUCH more consistant.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-10-25 20:55
"...the Buffet degree of variability is not something we attribute to other companies like Leblanc or Yamaha."
Since everybody is using CNC machines these days for boring and drilling standard billets variability here should not be much of an issue. Could it be inferior materials?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-10-26 00:07
The same reason that no two clarinets, barrels, mouthpieces or even bells are exactly the same. Wood changes, it's as simple as that, mouthpiecs change once the molds dry or cool down. They come across the ocean, changes in temperture over time, being played in different enviroments. I've never tried two of anything clarinet wise that were the same. Every instrument changes over time, some sooner rather than later. When Buffet came out with the Vintage model a representive came around to all the major orchestra's asking us to try it. I liked it so much that a few months later I decided to buy one and called him to ask if I could purchase the one I tried but he said it went into inventory and didn't know where it was. For years I tried many of them from time to time and never found one that played as well, I ended up buying a Selmer Signature. I tried 6 of those and really only liked the one I bought, which I thought was fantasic, I still do even though there were slight changes over time.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-10-26 02:11
The video of Buffet's clarinet making system shows the reaming of the lower portion of the bore. It is pretty scary because no positive means of arresting the stroke of the reamer is shown.
The reaming from the top made a large number of R13 A's too large below the barrel resulting in increasing sharpness going up the left hand clarion. This was a problem for a while, and address here in a recent thread.
I think that the main reason that new clarinets of the same model are so highly variable in playing characteristics is that production tolerances are too large. Not 6-sigma manufacturing, where the probability that anything that could affect the product performance is forced to be very low by paying attention to the important things.
Deming took that concept to Japan after WW II when they got so darned good at making things like cameras. It would not surprise me to find that Yamaha's clarinet manufacturing process are more precise than those in other countries.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-10-26 05:48
>> then there is a chance that the instrument bore would not be precise. <<
Not exactly... the point is that the process itself can't be that precise. At least not something a machinist would consider accurate. It's purposely done this way. AFAIK part of the reason is to make the clarinets slightly varliable and it's a different philosophy to making all the instruments as consistent as possible. Maybe something has changed since but I don't know.
>> Since everybody is using CNC machines these days for boring <<
Do you know for sure that Buffet changed to using CNC machines for boring instead of the method mentioned above (which was used at least until a few years ago)?
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-10-26 06:56
Besides the manufacturing process possibly being problematic there is also the fact that the grenadilla wood tree takes 60 years to mature and 6 years for the curing process. Do to over harvesting and depletion of mature trees early harvesting is being done to satisfy demand and kiln curing has possibly caused variance in the finished product not even mentioning the crack factor as a result of the wood being unstable due to the rushing of the process and the early harvesting. I think the depletion of the trees that were fully matured at harvest would have been in the middle to late 1970's.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-10-26 08:40
""Deming took that concept to Japan after WW II when they got so darned good at making things like cameras. It would not surprise me to find that Yamaha's clarinet manufacturing process are more precise than those in other countries."
Because I alternate one week on an 80's R-13 and one week on a Yamaha Custom I'm constantly reminded of the benefits and problems of each. I wouldn't be surprised if the Deming philosophy is part of the precision that makes me enjoy the Yamaha so much. But the romantic in me wants to believe that the Buffet is more musical. I'm glad I own each one of them, and also glad I don't have to choose between them. The R-13 has been worked over with custom pads, spring modifications and other tidbits. The Yamaha, as far as I know has never seen a technician since its birth 5 years ago. I really don't think it needed any massaging either.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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