 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: smk
Date: 2012-10-17 21:48
I am a bit of a ligature collector, and am well aware of how different ligatures make me sound different to myself when playing. Basically they seem to have a spectrum of sounds ranging from amplifying the highest frequencies (ie Bonade) to suppressing many of those 'noises' and sounding more mellow or 'dark'.
My question is whether these perceptions are also true for someone listening to me from a moderate distance. I am getting more and more convinced that they do not.
I think that while I may hear a more brittle sound from myself when using one type of ligature that this is only because I am hearing sounds from a very close distance, and that this shouldn't be very influential in selecting the right ligature for myself.
I am going to test this by trying it out on my spouse, listening to me from the next room; but I wonder if you experienced players have an opinion on all this.
PS There may be something to ligatures that claim to avoid warping of the reed, but I don't have this problem at all, so I am not considering that in selecting a ligature that is best for me.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-10-17 22:53
When it comes to deciding on equipment, I rely very little on my own judgement of the sound that I am creating. How I think I sound and how I actually sound are two very different things. Thus, when trying different equipment, I look towards my teachers & colleagues for their opinions.
Yes, ligatures can make significant changes in the sound. But, they do NOT change the core tone, at least in the way a mouthpiece or different clarinet would; going along with what you said, they really only change the harmonics, color, and outer "edges" of the tone. Therefore, I find it very difficult to judge how different ligatures work for me. Mostly, I am only able to hear and recognize my core tone, but the changes in how far harmonics go up in the notes and color aren't easy to perceive.
So, yes! Have your spouse listen. They will probably hear things that you may not hear.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-10-17 23:17
I take a different tack. I prefer to use what makes ME happy.......damn the listener. After all, if I'm not happy, what's the point? Of course you want all the goodies such as projection, blend, intonation (and ability to move your intonation for the moment - ensemble technique speaking of course), but if you are essentially not pleasing yourself, you probably should become an actuary instead. They make more money.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-10-17 23:35
Bethmhil wrote,
"they do NOT change the core tone"
I beg to differ on this. The mouthpiece doesn't produce the core sound, the player does. They do this by interacting with the reed, the way they shape the embouchure, the way they use the air to make the reed vibrate etc. A good ligature can help enhance the way the reed vibrates which combined with the other things done well can actually change the colour in the tone.
I too am a ligature collector and I have noticed differences between Rovner, Vandoren and others (currently using the GF System). Recently I was performing Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony and during the break I asked to principal bassoonist to have a listen while I played the solo from the 2nd movt. I used the Rovner Versa X first, then the Vandoren Klassik. He preferred the Vandoren as he felt it sounded fuller so I used that for the concert the next day. So I believe that they do have an effect however small.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-10-18 06:01
Paul,
Damn the listener?
Et tu Paul?
Ego should perhaps be supplanted for the benefit of whom we actually present a composition for.
Forgetting ligatures for a second as they become a mere pittance, who cares if we grow our own ego if a receptive audience is left cold and wanting after an empty performance?
I guess that may be why I miss the orchestral world as a whole quite little. I may be "happy" with how I sound but quite disappointed how what I played benefitted the ensemble as a whole....
But if I don't have to listen to you perform then I suppose I can take solace in that fact.
Abiding the thought that you may be instructing the rising generation with a horridly skewed perspective makes me want to puke.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-10-22 03:12)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-10-18 09:45
My point is simply: Do what you enjoy............. and you will be better at it (and for it).
Now it's an extreme example to say one would use a certain ligature to achieve a sound one thinks god awful and yet the rest of the world thinks makes you walk on water. However, if that could be the case, I'd rather enjoy what I'm doing than exchange it for all the world's riches.
Just a thought. Never mind. The Luyben is best.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-10-18 10:58
I've never played with anything but a metal ligature, not because of any preference but because it had just never really occurred to me to change.
I have just ordered a GF one to see if it makes any difference. I have found that recording myself when trying different techniques etc has given me a totally different perception of how I sound. I shall try this with the ligature and play the same piece comparing old with new. Part of me is sceptical about whether there is any difference, another part of me is curious. I do wonder if different ligatures might suit different pieces in the same way as varying my tone does? For example I like to use a very clear clarion and precise intonation for the Mozart Clarinet Concerto and quite a delicate slightly powdery one, with more diverse intonation when playing the slow movement of the Poulenc. It still sounds like me when I record myself but picks up different aspects from my spectrum of playing and I think suits the demands of each piece. I am starting to think differently about pinning myself down to a particular sound and as long as there is enough of me in there, I prefer to have a varied palette to choose from. I'll see what happens with the GF ;-)!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-10-18 11:00
Isn't this a great BB where folks can get so passionate about........ligatures? While the world as we know it goes down the proverbial tubes, people will be using their last breaths to exhort the virtues of their favorite.........ligature.
Now THAT'S a global perspective. Very commendable, y'all.
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2012-10-18 18:55
It is even more fun to try ten versions of the same ligature! One day, when I had nothing better to do, I spent several hours comparing some vintage Kaspar ligatures with the excellent modern copies made by Robert Scott and distributed by Muncy Winds. At least I was playing scales and thirds with them!
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Author: wxman5
Date: 2012-10-18 20:33
What about synthetic reeds? I use a Rovner ligature and was wondering if a different brand would improve the sound of Fibracell and Legere reeds? Mine sound buzzy, even using different strengths.
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Author: gwlively
Date: 2012-10-18 22:04
I play a Rovner and it makes me happy too. My teacher says he doesn't like it because it sounds too dark. I don't hear it that way, besides the best part is the reed and ligature won't twist off when removing the mouthpiece. Who needs all that stuff falling on the floor during a concert or rehearsal, just because you need to swab out.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2012-10-19 10:27
"...I am going to test this by trying it out on my spouse, listening to me from the next room; but I wonder if you experienced players have an opinion on all this...."
When you do the test, be blindfold, and get a third person to mount the ligatures. Without this the test has little or no validity. Perhaps get them to change the ligature several times over to reduce the effect of minute differences in the positioning of the reed.
Also, if you do this, then you can participate in the test, guessing which ligature is being used.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2012-10-19 19:30
I also collect ligatures. I have never thought they made much of a difference to the sound the listener hears, and usually only a slight difference to what I hear. The big difference, to me at least, is the way they make a reed "feel" and articulate to me. I can tell a definite difference when I use a metal ligature versus the Vandoren Klassic. I'm not a nut about switching ligatures in the middle of a concert, but I do tend to rotate them depending on the reed, situation, etc. They do make a difference, and if a ligature makes a reed seem more resistant, or more articulate, or whatever, then perhaps that translates into a better performance from the player. The audience may not hear a tonal difference, but may be aware that an articulation is extra clean, or that a passage has a very wide dynamic range, etc.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-10-20 19:59
If you try ligatures with the same reed there will be a tonal difference but once you settle on a ligature you will find or adjust a reed until it suits you. Now the difference is less marked.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-10-20 20:06
I divide my time equally between ligatures and the world situation.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-10-23 16:17
I believe they do make a difference but find it difficult to quantify anything. I recently cut out the middle of a Bonade but can't decide if it did anything other than make the lig. loosey goosey.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-10-23 17:12
I just added a Rover Versa lig to my collection.
I wanted a new lig because my two old Rovners have begun sticking to the mouthpiece making it hard to get the reed off and to adjust its position. (I tried wax and talcum powder and couldn't make much improvement.)
I got my second lig when I was trying to do A-B comparisons between mouthpieces and found that the Rovner and the Buffet metal ligs played differently on the same mouthpiece --as much as the difference between a good reed and a really good reed. For my mouthpiece swaps, I needed to have both set up and so that I could play a passage, swap mouthpieces quickly and play again.
The Versa does have something like 8 different ways that it can "load" the back of the reed while pressing it to the mouthpiece table. There is a metal channel into which one can swap one of two metal plates, and two "leather" flaps that can be folded under or over the "mass loading plates."
Fiddling with various ways to set up the Versa does make a difference in the responsiveness of the instrument, but I've not been able to bring myself to do an exhaustive comparison.
It works fine, but that stack of stuff on the back of the reed is really bulky, and makes it hard to see the butt of the reed to be sure it is centered on the mouthpiece table.
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-10-23 18:02
Perhaps the world situation (like a modified Bonade ligature) is so loosey-goosey because we've cut out the middle?
![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Sorry Mark et al, shouldn't mix clarinets and geopolitics, creates mental indigestion (besides being out-of-scope for this BB).
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-10-25 16:18
Ligatures make a difference. We just don't know what or how. This is a dissertation waiting to happen.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Baz
Date: 2012-10-29 20:47
I am a New Orleans jazz clarinet player, all my heroes who recorded before modern ligature design using a standard metal mouthpiece had gorgeous tones. The main difference is most of them played Albert System clarinets! I use an old metal ligature on my E.J Albert instrument, it sounds fine.
That's my small contribution.
Baz
Post Edited (2012-10-29 20:50)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-11-01 00:59
I find the ligature makes a HUGE difference. I can't stand the leather or plastic ones, I find they kill all the overtones and make the clarinet sound subdued.
My choice has been the Bonade inverse or the Vandoren Optimum. Both great ligatures that sound wonderful, and with the optimum you can switch out the plates until it feels and sounds just the way you want.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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