 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-09-16 23:54
Hello! So, some of you might remember my complaints about my R13 A clarinet being alarmingly resistant from last summer... I never did anything about it and just learned to deal with it. But recently, I played on a friend's A clarinet, and the difference in terms of resistance was ridiculous.
So, I took the horn to my repair tech. The pads are not synthetics or corks, but are fishskin pads... apparently, a very porous pad...? He seems to think that could be causing all the resistance that I feel in my horn, since air is probably leaking from the faulty pads. He then told me that the horn probably needs a complete repad... a repair job estimated at about $200 for masters synthetics.
I know it is difficult for you to judge what is really wrong with the horn without looking at it or hearing it, but could this (hopefully) be what is causing all the problems with resistance? After some helpful responses in July, I found no cracks, and different barrels had no effect.
Money is not easy to come by right now. Before sending it in for a repad, I want to be 100% sure that the repad will "fix" the horn. I would kick myself if I send it in, pay for the repad, and it come back playing exactly the same as before.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-17 00:07
Unless skin pads are damaged in any way, they aren't porous (maybe on a microscopic level, but not enough to make an instrument leak like a sieve) and should be airtight if seated properly provided all the toneholes they seat onto haven't got any imperfections in the crown of the bedplace which will cause small leaks.
Then multiply a small leak by ten (all the top joint toneholes not covered by the fingers and thumb) and you have a significant leak which will make the instrument very resistant. The majority of brand new clarinets will have imperfections in their toneholes, but on older instruments which are due for an overhaul these need to be dealt with as part of the overhaul procedure so the repad is successful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-09-17 01:18
First off, you're not going to be 100% sure of what's causing the resistance until after the cause has been dealt with, whether it's the pads or something else. All you can do is rule out or fix one cause at a time, starting out with the easiest and cheapest likely fixes and working up. I wouldn't start with a complete repad. As Chris says, there's no reason why *good* skin pads should leak significantly - they've been in use since Noah got off the ark, and instruments long before synthetic pads were invented played well.
A single leak from a damaged pad in a strategic place can be pretty disabling. A nicked pad seat or a pad that isn't level to the tone hole can cause the resistance you're describing without there being anything wrong with *any* of the pads. Two problem spots can double the effect.
The tech should be able to narrow any big problems down and fix them. If the clarinet still doesn't play well, he may want to take all the keys off and check the seats (this is all additional shop time, so you'll be paying for it). It is possible to test the pads' porousness by sucking air out of a small tube pressed lightly against the pad surface (much as you test the seal of the major section of a clarinet by closing the holes and one end and sucking the air out through the other end).
FWIW, I've played R13s and 10Gs all my life and never had a complete repad. It may be easier for the tech to just tear everything out and put new pads back in, but if he knows what he's doing, he's still going to need to repair any damaged seats and level the pads so they contact the entire circumference of the hole. The techs who have worked on my instruments have consistently gotten excellent results by finding and fixing the problems and leaving everything else alone.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-09-17 01:21)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-09-17 01:46
"is probably leaking"?
What? Probably?
Find a better tech - who knows that it is, or is not leaking.
My tech has a machine that measures the leakage - he KNOWS.
Do you know how to cover the end of the tenon, close the holes, blow into it and do your own leak test? And also perform a suction test?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-09-17 01:58
Yes, I've done my own suction tests on the horn. The upper joint seems to be okay, but the lower joint is questionable. Playing on just the upper joint (with barrel and mouthpiece), the clarinet plays noticeably less resistant, but with the lower joint, the same notes are completely different... fuzzier, stuffy. Could a leaky lower joint really affect all the notes like that?
I was just talking to my tech about the horn in his office and he didn't have his equipment to legitimately check for leaks. Yes, he has one of the fancy machines that measures for leaks at his shop across town. I think I'm going to take the clarinet to his shop and have him really check it-- do the legit leak test, take a look at the tone holes and pads in detail, etc. From the sounds of it, a complete repad really should be a last resort in this situation... whew! My wallet is thankful.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2012-09-17 02:32
Please let us know how it turns out, as it should be good information to have.
CarlT
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Author: jparrette
Date: 2012-09-17 02:54
Suction tests show nothing. You can suck ANYTHING closed. We play clarinets by blowing air through them. The only way to test for leaks is with pressure, NOT suction.
The machine that does this is called a "Magnehelic", or "MAG" machine. They work by blowing a minute stream of air through a hose into one end of a clarinet joint, while the toneholes are closed and the bottom end plugged with a rubber stopper. They are extremely sensitive. The repairman can not only tell if the joint is leaking, but which pad is the culprit. Any repairman without one should be avoided.
If you have an older instrument with skin pads, I'd bet my car keys it leaks.
John Parrette
CLARION MUSICAL SERVICES
john@clarionmusical.com
914-805-3388
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-09-17 03:01
The old-fashioned way of checking for leaks was to light a cigarette, inhale and blow the smoke through each joint with your fingers down and the end blocked on your other palm. Any smoke coming out would locate the leak.
I've done it just by drawing in to fill my mouth with smoke, but not inhaling. I'm sure the Magnehelic is much better.
John - What would you charge for a MAG test and replacing a couple of pads?
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-09-17 04:17
>> but which pad is the culprit. Any repairman without one should be avoided. <<
I completely disagree with this and I do have a magnehelic machine.
I can detect leaks without it, including where a leak comes from. the magnehelic by itself doesn't "magically" allow detecting where the leak comes from, the method to do that is possible without a magnehelic. It depends on the person's sensitivy using the "squirt test". This is not suction or normal blowing, but squirting air using the throat, either with but preferably without blowing your cheeks.
I have the magnehelic mainly for two reasons. First, it is a little faster once it's connected (thoguh connecting it might take a bit more time than "squirting"). Second, it is nice not to have to put my lips on a gazzilion clarinets, most are pretty clean but some are so dirty it can be gross.
If someone cannot detect leaks with their mouth at least close or the same as a magnehelic then IMO it is the technique and sensitivity of their checking that is not good enough. No problem with that, just use a mag instead.
>> John - What would you charge for a MAG test and replacing a couple of pads? <<
I'm not Jon but to answer that anyway, to check each joint with the mag, I would charge nothing.
One very thorough check can be to remove all keys, plug all holes with rubber and check the clarinet with the mag after assembling back the key one at a time. I've never found it necessary to do that beore someone decides to leave the clarinet for repairs, so I don't do that as a basic check (takes too long).
Anyway there is usually much faster a method to find where leaks come from which I sometimes do as part of a free check.
To replace a few pads I guess each person has their own way of pricing.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2012-09-17 04:27
I couldn't have said it better. A "Mag" is only a tool and can not replace competance.
john b
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-09-17 07:22
If you can inflate a balloon through your clarinet (or a latex glove on the sax) without resorting to "Gorilla grip", and the balloon stays inflated for a prolonged period of time, then the instrument, including your embouchure, might be considered airtight.
Else you can hear a faint hiss immediately. (And yes, the Ab/Eb key should withstand that bit of pressure).
That's a very easy and unscientific approach, but for a DIY problem determination at home it should be sufficient.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-17 11:28
I'd avoid anyone that goes around making the following ridiculous statement: "Any repairman without one [mag machine] should be avoided."
I don't have or use a mag machine and so far I've done fine without one. I used to use one occasionally when I worked at Howarth when I first started to check my cork padding, but if anything I used it to find leaks in instrument joints which can happen occasionally.
Sometimes I'd have an older instrument in which had a minute crack or an open vessel where air would escape from and the mag machine pressurised the bore so air would escape from the crack. The leak can then be found in the same way you'd find a puncture in a bicycle innertube by submerging it in a glass of water and watching where the bubbles came from. Then it's a case of sealing the crack by sucking superglue into it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-09-17 14:45)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-09-17 14:54
An excellent tech is indicated, someone like Larry Mueller in TN. He is on the web.
richard smith
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Author: jparrette
Date: 2012-09-17 15:11
Hi Ken - I'd be more than happy to diagnose your clarinet at no charge. I can't give a quote sight-unseen, but my rates are very reasonable.
John Parrette
CLARION MUSICAL SERVICES
john@clarionmusical.com
914-805-3388
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-09-17 16:08
Looks like it is the pads... I took the horn to Carl this morning. He did the MAG test on both joints. The upper joint was a 3, and the lower joint was a 5... he said they are supposed to measure at 1 or below. He even put thin plastic wrap under some of the pads, and the effect was immediate on the MAG machine. He is confident that a repad will open up the horn. In addition to the repad, he will look at the toneholes and fix any imperfections.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-17 16:19
If anyone is still wondering what skin pads are covered in, it's the same thing as sausage skin which is the lining from cattle intestines - a by-product of the meat industry. Definitely not fish bladder nor fish skin as some people seem to think.
Gore-Tex pads are the same as skin pads, but have a single layer of skin and an outer layer of PTFE.
Leather pads are traditionally made from kid leather and now kangaroo leather pads are available which are tougher and tighter grained.
Cork pads are made from the highest quality cork and ground flat during installation to seat onto toneholes, so toneholes do need to be both level and blemish-free for them to be airtight (as they should be when using any kind of pad).
Add to those, there are now various synthetic pads on the market which vary in quality and density, some with better reputations than others.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-09-19 08:49
I like cork pads in the upper register. They last for years, but it's a good idea to get the upper register tested once a year or when something doesn't feel right.
I do fish skin pads. I like to change them perhaps every 2 or 3 years. A good fish skin pad seal very well.
You need a top raked repairman to seal these pads. It's not easy at all. When studying with Hans Moenig he would order them by the hundreds. He'd throw out 3 of the 5 pads. Thats how hard it can be to seal the holes. He was so mad one day that he threw out all of the 100 and send them back to Buffet. I left early that day because he was so mad! Don't get the wrong idea here, Hans was great, just that one time when I was there did he get angry. A wonderful man that simply wanted the very best for his clients and this is why he got so upset. He lived for perfection.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-09-20 09:45)
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