 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chaz
Date: 2012-09-07 23:58
Hi, all. Glad I found this b-board, it has been a wealth of information as I crash learn about clarinets! Here's my situation, wonder if someone could advise. My son just signed up for Clarinet lessons at school. So I'm trying to get a decent quality clarinet for him to play without breaking the bank. Time is or the essence, as he needs it by next week. Having searched the internet, I decided the Vito 7214 would be ideal to start on. So I searched ebay and craigs list, and found one close by home which was supposedly bought by the lady when she was in school and was now selling it. Everything looked good, except that the 2 pieces with all the keys on them did not quite fit together. They were both labeled 7214, but had different serial numbers. The one had the locator pin that is supposed to fit in a grove on the other piece to align them when assembled. Problem is, the other didn't have the little groove, so the pin just hit, not allowing them to fit together completely. Looked odd, but she said that was how it always was, from the time she got it. She played a few scales on it so I could see that it at lease made noise, so I bought it. It was $100, which seemed fair.
So, my question is, do I just leave it like this with a slight gap between the parts, or do I remove the gap by either filing off the pin, or cutting a matching grove in the other part?
Everything fits tight the way it is with the gap now, it just looks odd. Would having that gap, which lengthens the horn by about 1/16 to 1/8 inch throw it out of tune?
I have shop tools, and could easily cut a groove to match that pin.
Any advice is really appreciated...
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-09-08 00:04
Before you mess around with the keywork, have a QUALIFIED TECHNICIAN give the instrument a once-over, to see what REALLY needs fixing..
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-09-08 05:35
Your question reminded me of something that happened about 15 years ago when I was teaching fifth grade band. I had a student with a fairly new Vito clarinet who caused considerable damage to the top joint (a long story). The repair shop said the piece couldn't be fixed, so they ordered a new one and transferred the keys. I think it had the Vito notch system, and I remember the new and old joints fitting together without a gap.
I'm not sure why one part on yours has a notch and the other one doesn't. Perhaps one section is older than the other and was made before the notch system was implemented? Someone who is more familiar with the history of Vitos can probably fill in more details.
Since both serial numbers are visible, you might want to check the following sites to find approximate ages for the two joints:
http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Clarinet/Leblanc/LeblancSerialNumbers.htm
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Leblanc.html
The slight gap probably won't cause any major problems, but I share your concern. It might cause it to play slightly out of tune. I'm also hesitant about starting a child off on an instrument that doesn't quite fit together properly.
I agree with Jeff about taking it to a qualified technician. There are a lot of good Conn-Selmer dealers out there, and you can probably find a good repair tech at one of them who can advise you. It is possible that he/she will be able to cut a matching groove, and it's possible that the clarinet will be fine afterward. It's also possible that the two parts are close, but not quite compatible. In that case, you could see if you can get your money back.
I'm very impressed with Vito clarinets, and if this one doesn't work out, I know there are plenty of good used ones out there at reasonable prices.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-09-08 10:10
Considering it's a $100 instrument, cutting a mating groove (at the right position!) isn't much of an issue. The idea of the pin-and-groove was that both joints line up perfectly (cf. bridge mechanism). Whether or not this is the best idea since sliced bread remains to be debated, as other clarinets (and players) apparently do fine without that gizmo.
I agree with the others to have it play-tested by someone knowledgeable (could be the repair person, could be the teacher) and then determine if it needs further tweaks.
--
Ben
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Author: Chaz
Date: 2012-09-08 11:23
Interesting. Looking up the 2 serial numbers, on the sites that clarinetguy references, I see that the section without the pin was made in 1977, and the section with the pin was made in 1982. That explains that.
The gold painted brand markings on all the parts match, so they are graphically equivalent, if not both using the pin. I've seen pictures of ones with the same insignia with the pin, and the groove cut in the one end.
I think I could easily file, drill, or rout a grove like that, but need to be sure of correct alignment. I assume correct alignment is when the holes line up exactly? There seems to be a bit of a range where the key lever would engage.
Sounds like my best option is to just wait and see. I'll send it to school with my son, let his teacher play it, and await feedback... I can always cut a groove, but can't remove one.
Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-08 11:47
The groove (or notch) is directly in line with the centre of the hoghest tonehole on the lower joint, so best mark it in with a permanent marker first to determine the centre line, then file the notch in the socket ring (full depth of the socket wall on the top side only) making sure it's no wider than the pin in the tenon.
The edges of the notch are usually rounded off slightly to make assembly easier so the pin will run smoothly into place and back out again easily when taking it apart.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chaz
Date: 2012-09-08 22:47
Good point Chris- I was just thinking it would be a semicircular notch, but rounding the corners would help greatly as you pull it apart to be able to rotate slightly just a bit sooner. Thanks
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Author: paker
Date: 2012-09-09 03:06
I recommend against mod'ing the clarinet. Most of these used clarinets cost between 50-100. If you buy one with matching serial numbers, you will be able to resell at about the same price. The savings of buying a mismatching clarinet will disappear when you resell it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-09 12:01
It will need modifying as the joints don't fit together. While it's a mismatch, there could be plenty of valid reasons why - most likely being the top joint was replaced due to a broken middle tenon or the joint broke in half at the thumb bush so was replaced with a newer top joint.
And $100 for a used Vito seems very reasonable to me wheter or not it has mismatched serial numbers. Modifying the socket ring to make the joints fit together is only in the instrument and the player's best interest.
I've seen pro model clarinets and oboes with different serial numbers on all the joints (but still the same make and model) which play incredibly well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-09-09 14:46
Since you already have an instrument with mismatched joints and serial numbers it doesn't have a great deal of value, no matter what you paid for it. This being the case, there is little to lose in modifying the joint by adding the notch or removing the pip. Alternatively, check with your local instrument repair people to see if any of them have a Vito joint in their junkbox, either with or without a notch/pip, just so long as you get a matched pair. My choice would be to remove the pip.
Tony F.
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Author: Chaz
Date: 2012-09-11 15:29
Yes, removing the pip (I learned a new word!) would be the least invasive repair, especially if there were a chance of reinstalling it in the future should need arise. Although, I may well destroy it on removal. Does anyone know if it is threaded in or molded in which would make it nearly impossible to remove. If it were just pressed in, I may be able to slide it out. Otherwise, filing it off would be the solution.
Yeah, I hate having a mismatched one, but I didn't pick up on that when I got it. The price is paid, and I'm ok with it, as It would have cost much more to rent or buy one form the music stores. I figure that this will get the job done as an intro instrument, and it seems to be a very decent model for that purpose. If he likes it and wishes to continue, then I would have no problem paying whatever a new one or better model may cost, and doing it 'right.' But for now, I think I have something that will be ideal for a beginner, yet I won't be out a lot if it is lost, broken, or given up on. I will say that he is very enthusiastic about it though! He's watching the videos and practicing on the mouthpiece, looking forward to his first lesson later this week
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-11 15:34
I think it's just a push fit into the tenon, so you should be able to pull it out with a suitable pair of pliers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chaz
Date: 2012-09-11 18:55
Well, I was able to use a small pair of wire cutters to grip the pin right where it entered the body, and rest the jaws of the cutters on the tenon. I then just rocked back on them and the pin popped right out! The end that went into the body was star shaped, with many points, but not cast into the plastic. The clarinet fits together perfectly now, and the pin could always be reinserted in the future if desired.
Thanks for all your help! I appreciate that you were all here to share your experience with the non initiated. Now I've done my part, it is my son's turn to practice and learn. If he does well, I'll be back here asking advice for the next purchase before jumping in blind.
Thanks again
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-09-11 23:19
All's well that ends well. I've seen one of these where the pip was molded into the joint.
Tony F.
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