 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-28 19:50
Hi All,
I have gleaned that the early Eaton Elites are quite a bit lighter than the later models. Can anyone tell me if the early ones are significantly heavier than the Boosey and Hawkes 1010?
Also do the early Elites sound much different to the later ones?
I have a 25th wedding anniversary coming up early next year and I have to think of a suitable present that I would like ;-)
I am not sure I could manage the weight of the later ones as I have very small hands and wrists.
The rules my husband has set are that I must be able to play the Gerswhin Preludes really well including the altissimo C at the end of the first prelude, the Artie Shaw including the slides and the altissimo C at the end and the Ireland Fantasy Sonata smoothly with all the high legato bits. ( I think he is punishing me for making him practice the piano part for the Ireland) ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
I could of course buy them myself but where is the fun in that? ;-)
I would like to think I half deserve to play on them before I am allowed to own them............... or should I just divorce him for unreasonable behaviour?
Any information would be gratefully received!
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-08-28 22:53
I have only had one earlier model in my hands some years back but don't recall that as being particularly heavy.
I don't think many were made before the move to a thicker body was made.
I can't say from personal experience how the tone changed although Peter obviously thought there was a tonal reason for the thicker body.
Some people do suggest that there is perhaps too much wood in the instrument but then tone is a very personal and subjective thing and the only way to know if it suits you is to try one.
There are quite a few of his instruments around now so someone near you probably has one for you to try
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-08-29 08:45
I currently own both styles of Peter's English bore clarinets - the earlier model and Elite.
Firstly - the early design is definitely lighter than the modern Elite - about as heavy as a modern 1010, maybe a shade lighter.
The bore and overall design of the older model is very similar to the Elite, if not the same - however the early clarinets did have thinner walls (inspired by the old 1010s), different key design, barrel length, etc. For me they play in a very similar way to each other, however the modern Elites do have a slightly thicker sound perhaps due to the fatter bell and wider body overall. The older instruments have a wonderful clarity and resonance that echoes the old 1010 feel.
Peter made some 50 instruments in the thinner walled design. I'm told that it was Roy Jowitt of the LSO who suggested that he try thicker walls, which became a great success, so Peter abandoned the thinner design.
Ramon Wodkowski
www.ramonwodkowski.com
www.facebook.com/Wodkowski/Mpc
Post Edited (2012-08-29 08:49)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-08-29 14:14
Eaton also made at least some instruments that were intended as copies of pre-war 1010s. I haven't handled any of these Eatons, but pre-war 1010s were lighter than post-war instruments, so these might be the lightest of all Eatons. There is a pair for sale out there on the web, which google should find easily for you (I have no connection with the seller).
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-08-29 15:48
My pair is the model based on a pre war 1010. They are essentially the bore of the Elite with a thin walled body like the old pre war clarinet. They feel and play like a cross between the old 1010 and an Elite. I like them, am sad Peter doesn't make that model anymore.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-29 19:24
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh Ramon ,I am sooooooooooo tempted but think I need a couple of months yet to be worthy. Will keep a very close eye on them. If they go before I am sure someone will be very happy! If not, then maybe baby!!!!
Thank you everyone for all your help!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-29 21:46
Did some of the early Eatons have nickel plated keywork?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-08-29 23:15
Using an elastic neck strap will let you worry far less about the weight of the clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-08-30 15:45
Ramon: interesting. So did Eaton never make instruments that were the weight of a post-war 1010 - i.e. he switched straight from lighter to heavier?
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-08-30 16:24
Hi John
The early Eatons are in my estimation a tad lighter than a modern 1010 - not quite as thin as a pre war though. The later ones that I use are obviously much fatter. As far as I know, Peter has not made any other designs - the International is the same body size as the Elite.
Richard Hosford has one of the earliest Eatons - it was about the same thickness as my older clarinets. I believe they were called the Mark 1, could be wrong though.
Ian Herbert plays a wonderful pair of these early Eatons that belonged to Jack Brymer, very nice indeed.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-30 19:35
Hi Bob,
I tried a neck strap for a while when I first got my 1010s as the thumb rest was way too high before I had it dropped down an inch. I felt really restricted but maybe will give it another go. ;-)
Jack Brymer is my all time hero. The recording of the Brahms quintet absolutely chokes me and I have heard it thousands of times. I am glad he got to play the Peter Eaton's before he left this world. Hopefully I will get to play them before too long! :-)
Post Edited (2012-08-30 19:37)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-30 21:22
I heard his recording of the Brahms on the radio a while back and couldn't believe how relaxed his playing was. He made it sound effortless!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-31 08:53
Yes Chris I agree. A gloriously reflective interpretation. Some kind soul has posted it on You Tube. Jack B, the 1010 and the Allegri quartet, what a wonderful combination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmdiaoRqhM
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2012-08-31 11:44
In an effort to address the weight question, I've just popped my later model Peter Eaton Elite Bb on the kitchen scales for comparison with my 1010 and my daughter's RC. The Elite weighs in at around 850g, compared with 800g for the RC and 795g for the 1010. Hopefully a modest enough addition to enable you overcome any hestitation in asking your husband to do the right thing...
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-31 13:27
Many thanks Hurstfarm for doing that for me! I will have a go at attaching an extra weight to my 1010 and see how I get on. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-31 14:00
The current Eaton Elites are heavier than 1010s. When I got my Eaton clarinets back in 2001 after playing 1010s i had to just remember to be relaxed. It's a lot easier imo, to be relaxed in the fingers and wrist on a lighter instrument. That way the transition if you do move onto the Eaton instrument will be easier.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-31 16:27
Hi Peter,
Thanks for that ;-)
I do have problems with the L hand B key on all clarinets when I am tired as my little finger is smaller than most 12 year olds!
I was thinking of getting a custom modification to my 1010s but it might be worth waiting until I get the Eatons and doing it then.
BTW I found your recording of the Adagio from the Mozart Clarinet Concerto.
I can only say it is truly lovely and you really don't sound like anyone else!
You are obviously playing a basset but I suspect it can't be an Eaton as they only made a few before the gentleman involved retired.
Here is the link to the webpage and peeps this is a must listen! Move over Michael Collins!!!!
http://www.morgensternsdiaryservice.com/WebProfile/cigleris_p_6398.shtml
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-08-31 19:12
I thought I'd add to the weight data, although I don't get quite the same numbers as Hurstfarm. I weighed instruments without mouthpieces - a mouthpiece with metal ligature and metal cap adds 50g to the numbers below.
If Hurstfarm included mouthpieces, we agree on the modern Buffet; my postwar 1010 is about 30g lighter than the Buffet, but the prewar 1010 is a real featherweight - 60g lighter than the Buffet. Interesting that a prewar Buffet is also quite a bit lighter than the modern one. The difference in feel is huge, and I rather like it, implying that an Eaton might be a bit hard to cope with. But more wood doesn't necessarily improve the sound: the prewar 1010 is significantly richer (although the tuning is something else entirely...).
1982 Buffet 750g
1936 Buffet 710g
1969 1010 720g
1939 1010 690g
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-01 09:15
Thanks John, that is really useful and fascinating to know. Perhaps clarinets are following the human trend and are getting heavier over time. ;-)
Post Edited (2012-09-01 09:16)
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2012-09-01 22:43
For the record my numbers were for Bb instruments as played: i.e. with mouthpiece, ligature and reed, but no cap. I can't claim my set of kitchen scales is a precision instrument of the highest quality, but I'd nonetheless see it as a reasonable guide to relative weights of clarinets, flour, sugar etc...
The "lightweight" 1010 (mine is 1979) was not what I expected. If guessing, I'd have said it would be marginally heavier than the RC, given its fat barrel and darker tone quality. No doubt it's due in part to the wider bore - air doesn't weigh much! By the same reasoning I assume that the wide bore Eaton Elite (my preference having grown up with 1010s) is a smidge lighter than the narrower bore International, which, acoustics aside, might be a consideration if weight is an issue.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-09-02 12:00
Hurstfarm,
I don't agree with your assumption that Eaton's Elite instruments are lighter than the Internationals. The Internationals are pretty much the same weight in my experience.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-09-02 16:22
The Internationals and Elites are the same weight. I have both - no difference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-02 16:51
Grenadilla varies in density, so that would make two identical model instruments weigh differently.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-02 19:15
Hi, I know this is slightly at a tangent but I find the following fascinating. I know clarinets have been made of many different woods according to availability and desirability. Is grenadilla the same as African blackwood??I live in a Georgian house which was built around 1790. It has three floors but what is really interesting is that the upper two floors do not have wooden floor boards but have a concrete like substance to make a floor around the main cross beams. This was because there there was major deforestation
in this period due to the supply of wood for ship building during the Napoleanic wars, so a shortage of wood influenced the structure of house building at that time.
Was the supply of grenadilla ? African blackwood affected between the European world wars e.g 1914-1945. Does this influence the 'amount' of particular types of wood available for making clarinets? Or is purely that the type of sound that was wanted required a specific amount/type of wood?
So in essence does this explain the apparent trend for heavier clarinets in the post war period or is it purely for aesthetic reasons that the weight of clarinets has varied since then?
Post Edited (2012-09-02 19:29)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-09-02 19:32
Grenadilla and African blackwood are the same thing as far as instrument making is concerned.
Yes there is a shortage of Grenadilla certainly as far as the quality required for instrument making is concerned but this has been a growing trend for many years as the volume of instrument making has increased year on year.
That is one reason why the lower grade (student) instruments are now made from various man-made materials. Other reasons include the high rate of waste in making as much wood has to be discarded and also the failure rate due to cracking etc etc.
The move to thicker walled bodies in clarinets and oboes has nothing to do with availability of wood however as the amount of extra wood is negligible but more to do with the current trend for "dark" sounds.
If you listen to players of previous generations you will note I am sure a generally brighter, focused and resonant tone than many of today's players seek.
Yes this is a generalisation but one I believe holds in principal.
Personally I am less keen on much of the current "dark" fashion finding it can also be rather dull and turgid but to each his own!.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-04 17:41
I contacted the company selling the early Eatons and asked them to weigh them for me which they very kindly did.;-)
I must say I got a bit of a shock:
Early Eaton Bb without mouthpiece 820g !
Eaton Elite 880g
(That one must have eaten all the cake!)
Pre-war 1010 720g
I weighed my own post war 1010 720g
My own Uebel 710g
I was expecting the early Eatons to be much lighter than that and probably similar to my 1010s. If this had been the case, I did wonder whether the sound would be much different to what I already had.
I think this does help me rule out the modern Elite as I think I would be on my knees under the weight. From all the data we have on this thread, it does appear that there are some qute significant differences in weight, even between the same models of clarinet.
Hmmmmmm must go and have a think on all of the above!
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-09-04 17:48
Paula,
Weight, imo, shouldn't be an issue. the sound of the instrument should. If you like the sound an you feel you can work with it then you should go with that.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-09-04 23:38
If you fit a Ton Kooiman thumb support you'll probably find that the weight of the instrument is no longer an issue. Google it for info.
Tony F.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-12 17:56
Oerrrrrrrrrrrrr couldn't resist and have been working very hard to try to deserve them! Have just asked Alex to let me have them on trial. They are arriving on Friday.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-14 17:21
They came today and I am never letting them go!
Love both my 1010s and the Eatons!
I have played both for six and a half hours today and my lip is hanging off......... but hey it was worth it.
People moan about service but Alex at Clarinets Direct and Ramon have been fantastic! So a huge thanks for that guys!!!! Hey guys I even figured out how to work the strange thumb rests and they are perfect!
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