 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: brycon
Date: 2012-06-07 23:56
I have admired Julian's playing for quite some time; however, I did not particularly enjoy listening to this ensemble. Julian's swing feel is very stilted in the up-tempo tunes and does not match with what his rhythm section is doing. His "solos" also have a distinct un-improvisatory quality to them. Very unswinging group, in my opinion.
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Author: hinotehud ★2017
Date: 2012-06-08 02:59
I thought his "World Is Waiting For A Sunrise" was pretty impressive.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-06-08 03:12
brycon wrote:
>> Very unswinging group, in my opinion. >>
Interesting. Do you think they'll get better, or are they hoeing the wrong row?-) On one level at least, I thought Julian did very well, having to chat and then play immediately in that tiny, crappy studio.
It's not music that I spend a great deal of time listening to, so my judgement is relatively uninformed; but I found what he did very sweetly nuanced, and to my innocent ear, beautifully fluent and natural clarinet playing. I infinitely preferred it to David Shifrin's effort that we discussed a couple of years ago, I remember, at:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=331658&t=330867
In the spirit of that discussion, can you go into more detail about what Julian should do in order to improve? (I take it for granted that the improvisatory element isn't up for analysis -- I just mean the stylistic elements of his performance.)
Tony
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Author: brycon
Date: 2012-06-08 19:50
Hi Tony,
I also found Julian's performance more enjoyable than the Shifrin. However, it should be noted that Julian was playing with what sounds like a competent rhythm section comprised of professional jazz musicians whereas Shifrin was playing with a pianist that sounds as if she has never played a lick of jazz in her life. In that respect, I was listening to Julian's group as I would any professional jazz ensemble and not as I would to a classical clarinetist's dabbling.
Upon hearing the first tune in the broadcast, I was struck by Julian's wonderful clarinet playing on the one hand and by an incredible sense of "squareness" on the other. What was he doing that makes this performance sound square?
The melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic components of what Julian played were all fine (I imagine he was playing Goodman's formerly improvised solos, so they should be fine). In my opinion, his problem was with what jazz players call one's "feel." Feel is a word that- like the words phrasing and sound- is comprised of many components that often get lumped together into a single term. When I talk about feel I do not mean the various rhythms employed- 8th notes, 16th notes, et cetera- but rather the manner in which the various rhythms are executed by the player. To this end, a players articulation, dynamics, stylistic nuances (accents, bends, scoops, et cetera), and management of the rhythms (especially the placement of the second 8th note within the beat) all contribute to his or her feel.
To further clarify, I will borrow Dave Liebman's definition of feel:
"A plausible definition of a good jazz rhythmic feel should involve words like "accurate" (meaning as close as possible to the original and ongoing pulse), "even" (meaning a smooth rather than choppy or awkward flow), "variable" (meaning not entirely predictable using a variety of rhythms) and of course our original word: swinging... ...Swing has a drive or momentum in balance with a feeling of relaxation and effortlessness. There is a "lilt" or bounce to the music that is beyond words. It is probably easier to point out what doesn't swing that what does."
On the uptempo tunes, Julian's placement of the second 8th note is very late within the beat (similar to a 16th note following a dotted 8th). Furthermore, he plays every beat with the same level of importance, almost as if giving a slight "accent" to each beat (see Gunther Schuller's work, Early Jazz, for a detailed account of the primacy of beats 2 and 4 within a measure of 4/4). Both of these nuances give the music a very stilted and unswinging quality.
Using Liebman's criteria, Julian's playing is not accurate (he is not matching the placement of the second 8th note nor the accentuation of beats that the rhythm section is laying down), he is not even (8th note lines are incredibly choppy), and he is not variable (his placement of accents lie on every beat).
Listen to the sound of the ensemble on the Paganini tune after Julian's "solo." The pianist plays with a much more even 8th note feel (closer to triplets or even "straight" 8th notes) and with much better placement of accents. And as a result, what happens? The ensemble swings much harder.
To my ears there is a sense of tension between Julian and the ensemble as a result of his feel. This is heightened due to the fact that the rhythm section is playing- perhaps anachronistically- much more of a bebop vocabulary than Julian, who is playing Benny Goodman swing-era solos.
In my opinion, Julian's performance has a quality very similar to a student learning a foreign language that- having not been immersed in the language and culture he or she is studying- creates sentences by translating in his/her mind from the native language into the foreign language. To other students in the class, it may sound very accurate, and on the surface, perhaps it is; however, native speakers would find the the student's speaking incredibly square.
Post Edited (2012-06-08 19:54)
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-06-12 02:09
brycon wrote" In my opinion, Julian's performance has a quality very similar to a student learning a foreign language that- having not been immersed in the language and culture he or she is studying- creates sentences by translating in his/her mind from the native language into the foreign language. To other students in the class, it may sound very accurate, and on the surface, perhaps it is; however, native speakers would find the the student's speaking incredibly square.''
I think this nails it for me too. We are talking about swing and phrasing here, not just an accurate playing of notes to fit in a particular chord sequence and complement of bars.
The rhythm section swings quite well in fact. The clarinet player plays accurately but without that elusive quality of swing and his phrasing lacks any element of surprise - two necessary components of jazz.
If you don't spend much time listening to jazz, then, I guess, these renditions will be just fine, but I was fairly bored by it all.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-06-12 04:28
Listening to these recordings makes you realize how great Benny was. Julian does a nice job on Moonglow and Sunrise.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: William
Date: 2012-06-13 16:26
Julian playing Benny is like Beiber singing Elvis.........close, but "no cigar".....
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-13 22:19
William wrote:
> Julian playing Benny is like Beiber singing
> Elvis.........close, but "no cigar".....
Very well, where is your recording then?
I have no desire to personally engage in a public discussion about Julian's recording. I have opinions, but they are for me; or I would personally discuss them with the artist(s) if the opportunity arose and such input were desired.
If one wishes to devalue an others work, it's on your conscience. But be able to support why if it is to be posted for the world to read. Or address matters didactically in this written medium as it is really the only path we are afforded. Simply saying "I don't like this" when one hasn't done the work, day in and out, is out of place.
And there is a hell of a lot more to talk about than simply "How Julian played." If those facts, and that world, are unknown, then refrain from posting opinions.
I as well possess opinions. But you won't see them written here for all to read.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-06-13 22:20)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-06-14 04:22
When I click on the link, I see some dtails about this how but no link to listen to it, only to whatever is on right now. Is there a way to listen to it or was it "live" only and impossible to hear anymore?
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2012-06-14 07:53
The "foreign language" comment is spot on, but he would be the first to admit it - as in fact he did when I had an opportunity to talk to him about it after a recital in London a few weeks ago. He was pleased to have found a group of Jazz pros "willing to put up with" him, and is having an immense amount of fun in the process. Certainly no harm in that - and he sounds like a pretty fluent speaker, even if not a native one! Perhaps no coincidence that his former mentor, Sabine Meyer, has also recorded Goodman.
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Author: jack
Date: 2012-06-15 03:50
Sammy Rimington is certainly swinging, he has added a swinging sound to the New Orleans sound. Be advised that he is very heavily influenced by the marvelously spirited and soulful New Orleans clarinetest George Lewis.
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-06-15 05:52
Sylvain wrote: ‘’ Some good old Benny Goodman tunes’’
Hurstfarm wrote: ‘’ Perhaps no coincidence that his former mentor, Sabine Meyer, has also recorded Goodman.
At the risk of sounding churlish (or whatever) in this particular instance, these are not BG tunes. ''Moonglow'' was composed by Hudson, deLange & Mills and ''The World is Waiting for the Sunrise'' was composed by Lockhart & Seitz. It would be correct to say that Bliss was attempting to play ''in the style of Goodman" .
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Brycon wrote: ‘’ Very unswinging group, in my opinion.’’
Tony Pay wrote: ‘’ Interesting. Do you think they'll get better, or are they hoeing the wrong row?-)’’
There are two answers here. 1/They could well ''get better'' but it depends on their level of inspiration and musical ingenuity at the particular time of performance....or, 2/Perhaps it was not actually question at all.
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Brycon wrote: ‘’ (I imagine he was playing Goodman's formerly improvised solos, so they should be fine)’’
This could well be the case. In which event, the performance was not really jazz. Any well schooled musician can buy a score or a fake book and play the dots as written - that won't, however, make him(her) a jazz musician.
The essence of jazz is improvisation and some level of originality. If you can't do that, you might as well label your group as a dance band.
In the Shifrin post, Tony Pay wrote: ''.......And I'm afraid the answer is: because very many clarinet players aren't much good..........''
Yes.......and along with many plumbers, accountants, politicians...............and jazz musicians.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-15 22:15
Quote:
William wrote:
> Julian playing Benny is like Beiber singing
> Elvis.........close, but "no cigar".....
Very well, where is your recording then?
I have no desire to personally engage in a public discussion about Julian's recording. I have opinions, but they are for me; or I would personally discuss them with the artist(s) if the opportunity arose and such input were desired.
If one wishes to devalue an others work, it's on your conscience. But be able to support why if it is to be posted for the world to read. Or address matters didactically in this written medium as it is really the only path we are afforded. Simply saying "I don't like this" when one hasn't done the work, day in and out, is out of place.
And there is a hell of a lot more to talk about than simply "How Julian played." If those facts, and that world, are unknown, then refrain from posting opinions.
I as well possess opinions. But you won't see them written here for all to read.
-Jason Boards like this are (IMO) a good source for a wide variety of opinions from people with different backgrounds. There's nothing wrong with a simple "I don't like this" whether you've done the work or not. A recording is meant to be played so we as a listener can enjoy it. If we don't, there's nothing wrong with us saying we don't enjoy it. I have opinions on vehicles, music, clothes, etc. and I value other people's opinions. Certainly sometimes it can "sway" a person one way or other, but this is a recording meant to be played for entertainment. How else are we supposed to take it other than, "I like what I hear" or "I don't like what I hear".
Personally, I think he's a great clarinet player, but I did not enjoy this. And I won't bother posting a recording of my own, but rather will say you probably would not enjoy my recordings either as I'm not a jazzer (although I am going to continue working on it).
I think he of course has the technical skills and musical knowledge to play chord changes, but it just didn't 'move' me. I'm sure if he wanted to continue down this path, he'd probably end up being VERY good. He seems to be able to excel in whatever clarinet path he chooses because he wholly dedicates himself to it and he's got such a strong base to start from. We'll see if he decides to continue.
I did hear what, to me, sounded like some good phrases and licks, but it seemed to me that he just isn't putting them together as smoothly as the few other jazz musicians I listen to can, and my perception was of a 'hesitation' to the solo part. Almost much like what I expect to hear if someone was overthinking it and saying in their head, "I could do this...or this.....or" and trying to 'choose' a pattern or lick, but time kept ticking and the thought process took a little long before starting it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2012-06-15 22:19)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-16 01:36
I suppose I am guilty as well of violating my own standards by expressing an opinion; one over how discussions like this could proceed in this particular forum. Or if they even should.
In the future I'll keep those thoughts to myself as well.
Just my take,
-Jason
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-06-16 05:17
Take 2: Is it still possible to listen to this??? I couldn't see how at the website but maybe I'm missing something.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-06-16 14:31
clarnibass wrote:
>> Is it still possible to listen to this??? I couldn't see how at the website but maybe I'm missing something.>>
No, it sticks around for 10 days or so, and then you can't access it.
He was promoting a CD that you can buy, if you're interested enough. As I commented, the radio programme is done live, in a horrible tiny studio, and the performers deserve credit for overcoming that difficulty.
Tony
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-06-17 03:47
Yes, I also could not play the recording. I've played with some musicians who read notes perfectly, play in tune, have a great sound, but don't swing. Sometimes they are too aggressive in riding the front end of the beat and sometimes they just don't feel the swing. Perhaps they would sound better if they played fewer notes and put in more rests, letting the rhythm section make the swing, if they can do so.
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Author: Lorenzo_M
Date: 2012-06-17 04:16
Hi all, longtime reader, but this is my first post. It's a topic that always piques my interest, so I finally decided to chime in (with no illusions of being an "expert" in anything). I listened to this recording when it was first posted on here...so I've been sitting on my opinion for a bit. I couldn't resist.
I will say, I studied "classical" clarinet for a few years, but for the last 7(8?) years or so, have focused on jazz...and mainly on saxophone. So, I bring the perspective of someone who was a performance major for both styles. Note: I essentially stopped playing clarinet seriously about 8 years ago, and just got back into it...trying to work on my classical technique first. Don't ask me for any sound clips unless you want to wait for a few months.
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Anyway, the jazz/classical debate is always an interesting one for me, since I studied both at a demanding performance level, and on multiple instruments. Clarinet is particularly interesting because of what I perceive to be an even greater divide in styles than say, saxophone.
To put it kindly, I thought Julian's performance was ok for what it was...a thoroughly worked out transcription(?) of a song in a jazz style with a jazz group. I wouldn't call what he was playing jazz, but it was pleasant to listen to. I'd rather listen to Julian play cleanly, not swing, but have fun than hear a "jazz musician" not play the instrument well and chalk it up to "improvisation". Just as I'm sure most here would rather listen to Benny Goodman play the Bartok Contrasts than many clarinet majors out there.
What was it missing? As was pointed out...the notes were fine, but all the nuance was lost. Let's forget "swing" for a minute (he didn't swing, that's obvious I think)...It was a well-performed and well rehearsed number...but it lacked all the attitude that makes jazz what it is. Jazz is not just certain licks and improvisation. It's a style of playing. It's not unprecedented to repeat solos verbatim, or play transcriptions (partial or whole) but the notes are ultimately secondary. Illinois Jacquet was known to play the EXACT SAME solo from flying home everytime the song was performed, because people asked for it!
Can he improve? Well, in what respect? Sylistically? Not without immersing himself fully in a completely different style/language. Phrasing, articulation, timing, melodic and harmonic hearing, interaction with a group...etc...He would have to retrain how he hears the instrument and music should sound, and how music should feel (rhythmically). Julian has the technique, so at least that's not the problem, but this kind of study doesn't happen quickly....years and years. The harmonic/melodic aspect is a completely different animal as well, and not necessarily an aspect of style (they intermix). The language analogy is apt, but to sound like a real jazz musician, you also need a certain vibe that comes from the culture - one has to not just learn a language by speaking and interacting, but to be recognized as a native, one has to immerse himself in the entire culture and sensibilities that come with it.
In short (lol) I think the biggest barrier for entry for classical musicians who have a high degree of mastery who attempt jazz is the style (which is unfortunately what jazz is about). You have to give up the control and polish and replace it with a more wild abandon, and a different way of thinking about time (which in Jazz is not really metronomic..."swing" is really a synthesis of western time and african polyrhythms...it's a "feel" and cannot be notated...it's interaction of different internal feels with awareness and agreement of an overall beat). So, this is why attempting to emulate those qualities often sounds "corny" (which, thankfully, Julian didn't do) ... just not enough time spent developing it. No matter what anyone tells you, it's impossible to learn this style quickly in a casual manner...and I think that's the false perception sometimes, that learning "swing rhythm", "bending notes", "spreading your sound", and "licks/patterns" makes you a competent jazz musician.
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Anyway, sorry for the LONG post, but I have a high degree of enthusiasm for this topic, and have spent a lot of time in both worlds...and find a lot of misconceptions on what is "required" by musicians on both sides of the fence. And if anyone would ask, I consider myself still more of a jazz musician these days...though I'm working hard to try and recover my chops from when I ONLY played classical music.
Anyway, I kind of wish the clip was still up...I'd love to transcribe what he played and see if I can demonstrate what I'm talking about! (well...maybe don't hold your breath).
If you made it here to the end...wow.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2012-08-15 04:56
I just discovered this album by accident while looking for Benny's 1973 European Tour. (anybody know where I can find this in toto on CD or MP3?--I've found only bits and pieces on the Verve 'Compact Jazz' and 'Jazz Masters' CD's dedicated to him.)
As for Julian, the samples I heard on iTunes sounded extremely good from a technical point of view, even if stylistically hesitant. Do we know for sure whether he's improvising or using transcriptions? If actually improvising, he seems incredibly good for the short time he say's he's been into jazz. If playing transcriptions, it's still a pretty good job.
Jazz immersion is a big job for any instrument, let alone one with the clarinet's technical snares. It'll be interesting to see if he goes further in this direction.
Allen Cole
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Author: vials
Date: 2012-08-19 23:59
Well, his solos are exactly the same on the live recording from the link as they are on his album, so he is unfortunately not improvising. Either he has transcribed solos, or he has composed his own..
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-20 00:17
There is a great series of videos featuring Eddie Daniels, put out by Backun Musical Services, on YouTube.
One in particular, where Eddie discusses "jazzing up" 'Over the Rainbow', seems to relate the discussion here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IkDD5ze-mY
I doubt I could explain either the problem or the solution of moving from classical training into the jazz realm (my life was the other way around) better than Eddie, and while this video doesn't go into great detail, it sure is interesting. The rest of the series is great too...I hope there are more in the pipeline.
[P.S. THANK YOU MORRIE for doing this. When I was a kid, I would have loved to have had access to the thoughts of a player like Eddie--now everyone can go on YouTube and check them out?! INCREDIBLE. ]
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-08-20 02:31
Yes, the video is interesting particularly where he invites his colleague, Joe, to ''do that'' and.........that's OK as far as it goes. The problem though, is for Joe or anyone else, to make his own phrases and licks. It's easy if you have someone by your side, but it's devilishly difficult on the bandstand in the glare of the spotlight.
Complete improvisation though, is more than just embellishing the melody with some licks, trills and runs. The complete improviser will be able to invent his/her own melody, on the spot. That is, for a complete sequence of chords, of the number being played, the melody of the tune will actually become something else............this ''something else'' will have come from the player's imagination.
So, there exists, in my view, a group of jazz players who can embellish a number and make it sound ''jazzy'' and another group who can truly improvise. The former group is much, much larger than the latter.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-20 03:23
One of the questions posed on this thread was how one might go about gaining greater fluency, phrasing in a jazz style. The video seemed to offer a starting point. It makes no claims to being a comprehensive method for jazz improvisation (nor did I in linking to it).
I'm pretty sure Eddie understands what constitutes "complete improvisation". You could always email him if you think he needs a tutorial (I don't).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-08-20 04:34
Gosh Mr Marlborough Man, you are assuming that I am somehow casting aspersions on Eddie's ability. I'm not actually, and I don't hesitate to say that the video is a useful jumping off point for any would-be jazz player.
Perhaps I should have typed in a line between the first paragraph and the second to make a distinction - these last two paragraphs are general statements regarding improvisation.
I don't really care if anyone one agrees with me or not, it's just a view that I hold.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-20 14:22
Can't remember where I read it, but there was an interview with Artie Shaw once where he was asked to discuss the difference between playing jazz and classical. He pointed out that it had something to do with cultural habits, suggesting that one big difference was a more formal attitude towards concertizing in European history, vs a more casual approach in American jazz. Eddie's video seemed to point in that direction as well, physically.
J.R.R. Tolkien might suggest developing an "American slouch"(heh). One of the things I've always told players is to watch the bodies of jazz players--see how they hold the horn, look at their shoulders, etc. And I myself practice in all sorts of slouching, casual, ways which in classical training would equate to bad posture and inadequate support, but without which a jazz player doesn't know his own body and how it interacts with the horn in any number of different situations.
All of this could be quite tangential to the subject of Julian's playing. It's a question of what he hopes to accomplish musically as he goes forward. but there's certainly no reason he can't walk down the jazz path.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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