 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-18 00:20
If one does a chromatic long tone scale with a tuner, there will be some variance in pitch (some flat, some sharp). If we were to judge the intonation of a clarinet, what variance would be considered good intonation? What variance would be considered a problematic instrument (or mpc or barrel)? Would an occasion note from 5 up to 10 cents off be considered bad?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-08-18 11:14
Red Chair, I am a little confused to your post. How is this in any way helpful to the OP? Quite a pointless post in my opinion.
To the OP - No one is EVER perfectly in tune unless they play a fixed instrument like piano or keyboards, or anything of the sort. I usually go with around that range of 5-10 cents sharp or flat depending on the chord being played (such as the 3rd of the chord for major and minor, etc) But tolerable i would say is around 5 cents. If anything is more than 10 cents and it's jumping all over the place from note to note, then I'd be worried. But that's just my opinion. Hope this helps
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-18 12:12
With clarinets, a lot of notes are intentionally sharp or flat such as the low E and F as if they were in tune, the B and C would be sharp.
With finger and embouchure corrections you should be able to control the tuning on the rogue notes. Anything up to +/- 20 cents is fairly normal on a lot of clarinets and can easily be corrected.
But the fact is if you're playing in a group of other wind or string players, then you should rely on your ear rather than a tuner so you're in tune with the other players around you.
If you're playing along with a digital piano which is very fixed and evenly tempered (unless it has special tempered settings to make it sound more natural as opposed to clinical), then you will have to make adjustments to be in tune with it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2012-08-18 13:22
I would say, a tolerance of 5 - 10 cents is ok, not fantastic (I like to try to sit within a 3 - 5 cent radius)
However, what is really important is to find an instrument/set up where you can be flexible enough to move up or down 5 - 10 cents per note.
Every note of every chord requires a different tuning, so when you are in a ensemble situation, having a note that's bang on with the tuner is irrelevant. You need to be in tune within the chord (and also with the others)
So, this means, that, all other things even, if you have some notes that are wildly sharp or flat, it will be difficult for you to go in the opposite direction of tuning, and therefore your ability to be flexible will suffer.
That being said, I think it's important to know which notes are crucial. I find that if the long tones (most fingers down) aren't pretty good in tune, it is MUCH harder to change them than short tones. Also, check the tuning between the two registers. It is important to keep a stable embouchure for register leaps, and if you're having to tune those connections a lot, the ease of playing will suffer.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-08-18 15:52
> Every note of every chord requires a different tuning, so when you are in a
> ensemble situation, having a note that's bang on with the tuner is
> irrelevant. You need to be in tune within the chord (and also with the
> others)
Agree 100%. This is especially true with "weird" chords (eg tensions) where sometimes considerable adjustments are necessary to make the chord "sound" as intended (or halfway bearable to all who are listening)
Use (and train) your ears, and you'll find out without a tuner when one note "rubs" against others in an ensemble.
In a way, playing "in tune" in an ensemble is like driving on a crowded freeway - you don't stare at the speedometer all the time but rather swim with the surrounding traffic - even if that means pushing the speed limit a bit every now and then.
--
Ben
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Author: 2E
Date: 2012-08-19 13:30
I agree, that 5 to 10 cents variable is probably acceptable. It's good to practice playing each note at the extremes of sharp and flat to adjust 'on the fly' when playing with other instruments, especially winds in orchestra or chamber ensembles.
Little off topic - I thought it was Sir Simon Rattle posting there for a second
is there a relation there, Sascha?
2E
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-08-19 18:04
Not for nothin, but a really good tech can take a horn that's in good variance (5 - 10 cents) and make it GREAT (close to spot on throughout the registers in terms of tuning and resistance note to note).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-08-19 21:18
I think you should be able to get every note in tune. Sure some chords are weird, but sometimes you'll have to play the tonic. In tune. Yes some flexibility is important, and you'll need to make adjustments to some notes. Equally important is to get intervals in tune, for which you need to switch the tuner off and listen.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-08-19 21:23
There has been a previous discussion on this point, where I included some detailed tuning data for various instruments:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=306945&t=256900
The conclusion was that a good instrument can generally be within 5 cents (although it's hard to assess this with a tuning meter, where the reading tends to jump around - better to get a recording on a computer, so that the average pitch can be measured more accurately). I'd say it's hard to get better uniformity than 5 cents, just because of the acoustical nature of the clarinet (as Chris P points out: you can't have e.g. bottom F and clarion C both in tune).
But 5 cents is not good enough for playing in tune. First of all, a pitch difference this big between two players can be heard if you go high enough: being out of tune is a question of hearing beats that measure an absolute difference in frequency, whereas cents are a measure of fractional error. For example, top G on a Bb clarinet is 1399 Hz, so 5 cents error is a frequency difference of 4 Hz, which is a beat that is all too easy to hear. For that note, you probably need to be within 1 cent (or use vibrato...).
But this is all assuming equal temperament. Depending on the key being played, proper just intonation can differ from equal temperament by up to 17 cents (I have to say I was surprised the difference was this big when I first looked it up). So if you have a good instrument that's within 5 cents of equal temperament, you may have to bend a note by over 20 cents to get it where it should be, and to achieve this to within just a few cents in higher registers. When you look at it like this, it's astonishing that good players do manage to be in tune most of the time.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-08-20 16:53
Intonation is relative to who or what you're play with. 5-10 cents off on any note is not a problem as long as you can adjust it to the others. You may be 10 cents sharp and the other person may be 20 cents sharp. Obliously if some notes are 20--40 cents sharp or flat that can be a problem because it will take so much adjustment that the tone will become distorted. I would say, in a general manner, that any note 10 cents out of tune with a tuner should not be a problem because you should be able to adjust that with your embouchure or fingering pattern. Getting it perfect is better of course but no clarinet can be perfect on every note with a tuner. Because we play in 12th and not octaves, when you adjust one note it will also effect the 12th above or below which is a reason it's so difficult, if not impossible, to manufacture a clarinet perfectly in tune. An adjustment to the top joint can also effect the altissimo register in the left hand notes.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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