 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2012-08-11 10:00
Interesting Selmer series 9 tenon repair video posted recently to SOTW forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN70Ts_S9Yk
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-11 11:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN70Ts_S9Yk
Series 9? It's a K-series. Check out the LH lever pillars at 0:15 and there's a serial number at 1:37 which I can just make out the K.
Still, it's an excellent insight into showing what's involved in replacing a tenon and definitely not something for the faint-hearted to tackle.
If he had a milling machine he'd have been able to cut the square raised bush surrounding the C#/G# tonehole on the new tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-11 13:56
How much would an involved proceedure like that cost? I imagine it would be so pricey that it would only be worhwhile on a highly valued instrument like the classic Selmer. I would guess the cost is in the $400 to $500 range. Add to this a $300 overhaul cost and we have $700 to $800 in repairs alone plus shipping. The cost of an instrument with a cracked tenon could still be worth $150. Add it all together and you have a nice instrument for just under a grand. Even though the end result may play superbly, it still is something of a gamble that after spending almost $1000 you're left with a final product that wouldn't re-sell for more than $500 (considering it has an obvious replaced tenone ) and you don't know exactly how it play before you begin the repairs.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-11 15:15
You wouldn't always need a complete overhaul if a tenon needs replacing.
Buffet Greenlines are notoriously weak at the middle tenon and I've seen several that are only a few months old that have snapped, so they wouldn't need a full overhaul - just the middle tenon replaced with one that's made of much stronger stuff as Greenline is very brittle.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-11 18:36
I was looking at the video and it does appear that this Selmer is getting a complete overhaul from another tech. (Actually the first tech sent the horn to the tech who did the tenon replacement). This is an indication of how difficult a tenon replacement is. It appears that the Selmer Centered Tone is a fairly rare and valued instrument. There must be many less of the them than there are say R-13's. How is a tenon replacement going to affect the sound? How rare are Centered Tones to demand such extensive and expensive repair work?
There is a shop in Miami that has a Centered Tone that seems to need nothing more than a complete overhaul. He has the price at $1000 but I imagine by his shock when I could not get a single sound out of it that he'll be reducing the price by quite a bit. When he heard how nicely the R-13 that I bought from him sounded he was only willing to take $100 off the price. What could I do? I couldn't pretend the R-13 was a waste basket case and play it badly because I needed to test it. This guy is now willing to bargain on the Selmer because I told him that the horn is unplayable. I didn't see any cracks or signs of abuse. What's an old Selmer CT worth if it's clean but needs everything done to it? The only way I see buying an instrument you can't play is if the price is very attractive.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-11 19:29
The clarinet in the video is a K series which is much older than a Centered Tone - the CT like the Series 9 would have three pillars for each of the three LH levers instead of one tall pillar for both the LH E/B and F#/C# (both mounted on a single screw in the same manner as the top joint trill keys) and a short pillar for the LH Ab/Eb lever as the one in the video.
What's a CT (or any other old Selmer) worth? More to the player who enjoys playing it compared to its commercial value. If my CT full Boehm suffered a broken middle tenon, then I would definitely have it replaced regardless of its commercial value.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-11 20:34
I understand the appeal of an old Selmer. This week I was watching Ken Burns' series Jazz on Netflix. Apart from his obsession with Louis Armstrong, there was a short segment on Benny Goodman. I believe his instrument of choice was one or another of those old Selmers. If I could play like him, I blow on a length of sewer pipe. However, the Selmers look so different from other instruments. Although I've never played one that was functionally restored, I thought the one I had in my hands two weeks ago, visually had a lot of personality.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-11 21:21
You're welcome to come round and try my old Selmers, but it will be a fairly lengthy and expensive journey! If only they'd offer something in way of a large bore clarinet now as there are no doubt still some players hankering after large bore Selmers in a world dominated by narrow bore clarinets, but are worried about the reliability of an antique instrument.
I'd love to see how Selmer fashioned the middle tenon on clarinets with articulated G# with the square raised bush - reason being is they have the grooves in the slot that run right up to the sides of the square bush. The Leblanc LL full Boehm I've got has a circular raised bush in the centre of the tenon surrounding the C#/G# tonehole.
I can only assume the square bush was carved on a milling table (setting the cutter at a specific depth and then doing the rest by hand) and the grooves were done by hand afterwards (but using a guide to make them as evenly spaced as possible). But seeing some of the old metal mouthpieces they produced from the early 20th Century, maybe they had far more sophisticated machinery in their factory back then.
While the hole through the tenon may appear odd to a lot pf people, I've played on clarinets with it (and other gadgets) since I was 15 so it's an everyday thing for me.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-08-13 11:29
>> If he had a milling machine he'd have been able to cut the square raised bush surrounding the C#/G# tonehole on the new tenon. <<
I'm not sure what "square raised bush" is but I know Matt, who has done this repair and clip, does have a milling machine (both manual and CNC, from what I remember).
>> How much would an involved proceedure like that cost? I imagine it would be so pricey that it would only be worhwhile on a highly valued instrument like the classic Selmer. I would guess the cost is in the $400 to $500 range. Add to this a $300 overhaul cost and we have $700 to $800 in repairs alone plus shipping. <<
This really depends.
Shipping only applies if it is done by shipping. At least here, almost everyone would bring the instrument instead (still some cost of coming but anyway...).
How much the tenon replacement itself costs depends on each person doing it and the amount of work necessary for each case. If you need to have this done, ask and get estimates. I know Matt doesn't mind me posting that he would usually charge very significantly less than $400, for example.
The clarinet needing an overhaul or not is also independent of the tenon replacement. It's entirely possible that the clarinet will need next to no repairs other than those related to the broken tenon. So in your extreme example, if the instrument actually needs all of that and the repairer charges those prices, yes it will cost that much. But in some situations it's possible that it cost less than e.g. $200 and you have the clarinet as good as it can be.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-13 12:50
I bet there are only a couple of dozen people in this country that have the skills, experience and tools to do these procedures. In Miami, I know of not one single repairman who even possess a lathe. There are no highly equipped repairmen until you drive to the other side of the coast or two counties north. (Christman in Ft. Myers). I'm confident it is different in major cities like LA, NYC, Chicago, Dallas or Atlanta, but down here in South Florida you can get experts to repair your Ferrari or lay Italian marble in your mansion ... musical instruments? ... forget-about-it.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Slausonm
Date: 2012-08-13 13:15
Hello All,
I am New to this forum but not new to some of the posters on this thread. Clarnibass let me know that my video was being discussed, so I thought I would put in my 2 cents about some of the comments that were posted.
The comments about pricing were kind of interesting. It is absolutely true that you have to judge the value of all of the repairs against the value of real and personal value when deciding to do repairs or not. The $400 - $800 range for the tenon repair I did is far beyond what I charge. The (wholesale) charge to the customer was less than $100 including shipping. I have an hourly rate in the back of my head when I price repairs and I try to get 1-2 times my rate when doing specialty repairs. It took me longer to take the pictures, create the video and post it than it did to do the tenon repair. I covered my hourly rate except for the video stuff. I do not know what the person charges for the rest of the repairs needed, but the instrument will definately need a complete repad (what ever that is defined as here )
My shop is well equipped. I have a manual mill as well as a CNC mill I built. I also have a couple of lathes. I am not lacking the equipment I need to do almost any repair. My equipment is old and used for the most part but very functional.
As far as the raised square section of the tenon tone hole goes, I decided not to create this part because every one of these older selmer clarinets that I have ever done had this section worn out and corked over. IMO, it serves no purpose to create it. If you were to cork around a freshly made square section there would be a slight air gap between the square section and the socket. YES! I could have made this as well using my mill and a rotary table to create the square. It would have doubled the cost of the repair.
Creating the grooves in the tenon was probably a good thing during the days when shellac was used to adhere corks to the tenon. With the use of contact adhesives it is not needed. IMO instrument makers still do this as tradition more than serving any useful purpose. Having a smooth tenon also makes removing the old adhesive easier when replacing the cork.
Lastly, a plug for what I do. I am a full time Engineering/Technology teacher that has a degree in Musical instrument technology from SUNY Morrisville. I run my repair shop part time and try do do only specialty work like tenon repairs, socket grafts and key making. I do pad work as well but find it exceptionally boring so I don't promote it. I work on any instrument that comes into my shop from piccolos to tubas. If you have specialty work that need to be done that you can't find a local shop to do drop me an e-mail.
Here's another of my video's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt0X9JTo3W4&list=UUTDN540QY4_vrNNJ1l59P4A&index=10&feature=plcp
Matt
mslausonw@gmail.com
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Author: Slausonm
Date: 2012-08-13 13:36
It always amazes me when I hear comments like this because having a lathe in a music repair shop is very useful and potentially profitable. Used lathes are fairly inexpensive and new (good) Asian made lathes are fairly affordable as well. I am not in a metropolitan area. I live in a small town between Rochester NY and Syracuse NY. Population of about 2000.I am the only repair person in the area that does this kind of work. I also do a fair bit of this type of work by mail.
FYI, you probably would have as much success getting a local home shop machinist to do this repair as a musical instrument repairman. It is a fairly simple and easy machining operation. As much as I would like to say it is magic and takes a great deal of special talent, it does not.
Matt
mslausonw@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-13 15:29
From what I've experienced, the raised square bush surrounding he tonehole is there to prevent cork grease occluding the C#/G# tonehole (both the tenon and socket sides), but that can still happen.
Although I presume Selmer did that to keep as much wood there as possible to make the tonehole as continuous as possible - even though there's still a small gap between the bush and the socket lining.
The two-piece bodied Buffet Eb clarinets have the C/G tonehole going straight through the tenon cork without the wooden surround.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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