 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2012-08-10 08:22
Hello everybody!
I'm not very good at using reed knifes, so last year i purchased the ATG Reed Finishing System and i'm very satisfied, but i think i'd get still more playable reeds, so i'm thinking of purchasing the Reed Wizard to use both the two systems, the RW to start the process and the ATG to make the final adjustements.
I know there have already been some topics here about that, but 299$ (245€) is quite a lot of money, so i want to read as many opinions as posible.
Is it worth purchasing it? Can it work together with the ATG?
Thanks!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2012-08-10 11:40
Hi,
I'm not sure you need both. I have used the ATG for many years with great results. As you say, the Reed Wizard is pretty pricey.
But you are "very satisfied." What would you then be with the RW "a little more satisfied" but also a little poorer?
HRL
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2012-08-10 12:07
Hi Hank!!
Sorry, maybe is because of my english that i looked more enthusiastic than i wanted to look..hahah... I'm "quite satisfied" so my question is if i'd get "very satisfied" using the two systems. I wouldn't mind spending this money if i knew i'd have 8 to 10 good reeds out of a box, with the ATG i'm getting about 6.
I'm quite young and i want to keep playing many years...hahaha...so i think after a time it could pay by itself....
Thanks!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-08-10 12:52
My reaction to the Reed Wizard is that it does very little to modern commercial reeds. If it removes any cane at all, it's a very small amount along a very specific track that starts near the heart area at the bark end and runs outward toward the rail edge as you push the blade forward toward the tip. Perhaps when Ben Armato first developed it reeds were cut less reliably and more wood needed to removed to make commercial reeds play. My experience over the 7 or 8 years I've owned one is that it only makes a difference in a reed that it too thick somewhere along the one specific track it cuts, and many reeds, even thick blank designs, are already cut thin enough that the blade barely touches them at all. Mr. Armato's goal, as I think he wrote somewhere in the instructions, was to create a tool that duplicated a profile he had determined was ideal, with no really accurate way to adjust for individual taste. Also, the blade is a straight edge with no way to create or alter the curved surface modern commercial reeds have from one rail to the other. So my overall opinion is that it's a well made device that serves a limited purpose.
Incidentally, I find Armato's Perfect-a-Reed, which measures the reed's thickness at potentially (if you have the patience) 80 different points on its surface, to be much more useful. It can actually show you where a reed may be out of balance and suggest where it might be useful to remove material to balance it. It's also a little pricey, but in my own experience better worth the price in day-to-day reed adjustment.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-08-10 12:53)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-08-10 13:25
I use both very succesfully.
There is a trick that I learned from Ben A. who invented it - you put the reed tip past the white line so that the white line touches the edge of the tip curves (where the curve starts which makes the tip). This puts the tip of the reed about 1-2 mm past the white line, and it will take wood off of, and work really well for modern reeds.
I use the reed wizard first, then the ATG system. I only remove a little at a time, and get great results.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2012-08-10 13:41
I have responded to your previous post about the Reed Wizard, so won't repeat what I said there. However, I also use the ATG system with great results. Since that tends to work on larger areas of a reed, then a reed knife, Reed Geek, or rush is also good to have. If it were me, I would spend my money on a Perfect-a-Reed or other reed measuring device....I think Jeanne' also sells a good one. In that way you can determine specific areas of the reed needing adjustment.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-08-10 17:22
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> There is a trick that I learned from Ben A. who invented it -
> you put the reed tip past the white line so that the white line
> touches the edge of the tip curves (where the curve starts
> which makes the tip). This puts the tip of the reed about 1-2
> mm past the white line, and it will take wood off of, and work
> really well for modern reeds.
David, I didn't know Ben Armato, but I had a long phone conversation with him when I bought the Wizard. He made the same suggestion to me, and that's the way I've used it from the beginning. I don't get very much wood off ever - none after a couple of passes.
There are two tracks that it can cut on each side - you can line the reed up on the outside edge of the table or along the center rail (I think an addition he made to the later Wizard versions), which will cut along a line closer to the center, or at least farther in from the rail. I haven't tried to use my Wizard for awhile, but I'll go back and see if I've underestimated what it actually accomplishes on my reeds (mostly Vandoren V12, Rue le pic, and Rico Reserve Classics).
Karl
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-08-10 17:38
I used to own the Reed Wizard and still use the ATG system. I found the same issues that kdk had with it not removing almost any material and it barely made a difference for me. However, the ATG system is still a necessity for me for balancing my reeds. No other tool is used as easily with successful results in my opinion. I think you should be fine with just the ATG and using the side to side test that Tom Ridenour explained for it. Works fine. Not all reeds are going to play well. It's just the fact of the nature.
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-10 18:19
Hi, all. My conception of the reed is somewhat different than many writing, here. I know of the Perfect-a-Reed, but I have never used one. When I wrote my dissertation, for the computer model, I measured the reed at 3000 data points, so I have a much more accurate description of the height variations in a typical reed (if anyone wants a copy of the data, e-mail me). 80 points might be good enough to do some qualitative work, but height does not equal resistance, as many think, except very near the reed tip. This has to do with the requirements of thin plate theory. Besides, I cannot stress this enough, the reed has to be balanced against the 3-d pressure spectrum emerging from the mouthpiece. There is no group way to balance reeds. I am limited in that I can't draw pictures, but the perfect vibrating reed is one that maintains a strict longitudinal motion without any canting from side-to-side (it is the rotational hitting of the reed against the mouthpiece that causes buzz). The resistance of a reed is a complex function of the lignin distribution, thickness variations, and modulus variations from point to point on the reed. It is possible to "balance" a reed for a given mouthpiece, but many things can cause the next reed to need to be balanced differently. A colleague in Europe, Pierre Tallard, is currently doing modal analysis of the reed to determine, on average, the best places to cut a particular reed to ensure longitudinal motion. He just published a paper on the subject and the pre-print can be downloaded from Arxiv, here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1202.2114
I would love to see how the Perfect-a-Reed works, because it might be able to be hooked it up to a computer and record the gross shape of the reed. Once plotted, one would be able to have a better idea of where to scrape.
By the way, most high performance reeds are made asymmetric, on purpose, to offset the 3-dimensional pressure gradient in the clarinet mouthpiece, which is larger on one side (left, if I recall) than the other, requiring a thicker reed on that side. Acoustic streaming near tone holes rob the pressure of some energy, lowering the pressure. The side of the clarinet with more holes will show a slightly smaller pressure than the other side, requiring less thickness in the reed to respond.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-08-11 01:50
I have used Tom Ridenour's ATG system and it works and works very well. If you buy good name brand reeds to begin with you should be able to get 9 or even 10 out of 10 reeds very playable with his Against The Grain system. Just watch some of the youtube videos he does and it is about as fool proof as they come.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: gwie
Date: 2012-08-11 07:10
I love my Reed Wizard...use it all the time. I've been able to make many reeds much more functional for students, considering the wide variety and quality that they walk in with.
I've had mine for well over ten years (yes, I did change to the "new" version with the cutting edge instead of the file), and it's been worth every cent.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-08-11 13:21
They said that Ted Williams was a genius for dividing the strike zone into 70 parts but 3000 data points on a Bb clarinet reed is quite something.
Best advice is to start with a good reed that plays well.
Then any gizmo coupled with experience and reed rush, along with a proper break in period, will suffice.
And at the concert, the reed will never play perfectly. You will have to make it work.
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2012-08-11 16:28
Hi Dileep!!
I have also four Forestones in my reed case!!. I'm satisfied with them,
but don't want to hesitate to find the "perfect" cane reed, if any gizmo not superexpensive can help me, i'll purchase it..
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-13 14:30
"They said that Ted Williams was a genius for dividing the strike zone into 70 parts but 3000 data points on a Bb clarinet reed is quite something."
I used a coordinate measuring machine. Actually, I asked the automotive department to use their HUGE machine to measure the surface of a clarinet reed. It had a touch-senstive probe that was computer-controlled and came down, touched the reed, took a measurement, and moved to the next grid point. I wish I could post a picture, here, as I am working on a series of articles for Clarinet magazine on reed science and I just re-plotted the data on my iPad. It looks really nice. My goal is to create a website that summarizes reed science and will actually let people play around with modifying reed parameters to see how it affects vibrations. There are free finite-element programs and I can, in principle, set up a server with the software on it that will reed the reed profile, do the calculations, and return the results to the front web page. Quite a bit of work, but it might help people see what their scraping actually does.
Donald casadonte
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2012-08-14 12:01
Hi Donald!
Have you tried testing the reed with the measuring machine after and before using the Reed Wizard?
With your computer controller you would easily know whether the results one obtain with the Reed Wizard are good or not.
You could also use the ATG on the tip of a comercial reed and tell us if Tom Ridenours system is making it better or not.
Only some suggestions..hehehe
Thanks!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-08-14 13:03
No measuring tool can tell if whatever has been done to a reed "is making it better or not." It can only measure, not evaluate. If removing cane with the ATG, Reed Wizard, rush, a knife or sandpaper makes the reed feel better to the player, that's the only valid criterion for whether or not the reed has been improved.
Measuring is useful to look for explanations of why one reed feels better to the individual player than another. And of course, as Donald has pointed out here and elsewhere, the sound and response of a reed aren't solely the result of its dimensions - beyond a certain point other physical properties of the cane probably have a greater influence than thickness. Discovering and reproducing the dimensions of "good" reeds can help provide a consistent point of departure. It's just that altering the thickness (removing cane) is the only real way we have as end users to compensate for the reed's natural properties.
Karl
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-08-14 14:22
I had a fe reeds, Ricco Royal, that I tested last night and adjusted. Side to side open keys then middle. If it doesn't sound clear on one side (eg. left) than I work on the left side of the reed and finish up with reed tip proceedure and it came right into being balanced. Just a few minutes with each reed. Nothing fancy, just play, listen, adjust, play, listen and re-adjust if needed. A little goes a long way. Better to do a little and just take off minute dust than to overdo it and then find out you took off too much. You can always go back and take off a bit more if needed.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-08-14 19:10
I mostly use a reed knife and very fine sand paper to "seal" the bottom of the reed. Mostly on the none sand side unless I need to take a bit of wood off as well. I do own both the Wizard and the ATG and have found the Wizard more usefull because it balances beneath the tip where I can't test with slight finger pressure to determine the softer or harder side, which I refere to as "thouchy feely". The ATG is good for those that are not comfy using a reed knife or are handy making adjustment with sand paper, which is what the ATG uses, or reed rush. I think it's worth the price if you're a serious player.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-14 23:31
"I mostly use a reed knife and very fine sand paper to "seal" the bottom of the reed."
I cannot recommend this idea of sealing, which I often hear. Sealing against what? The reed must be able to absorb water, so sealing the bottom against that (which sand paper definitely will not do) makes no sense. If sealing = smoothing, then it should be called smoothing. Using sand paper creates microscopic cracks in the reed ultrastructure which actually hastens the death of the reed. I have scanning electron micrographs of a scrapped sax reed and you can see the friction-induced distortion in the cell walls.
On another note: is it legal to add pictures as attachments so people can see what I mean about some of these things?
When one "balances" the reed, what one is really doing is balancing the reed and mouthpiece pressure forces against each other. The reed, itself, is actually quite unbalanced from a thickness point-of-view when the total forces acting on the reed are finally balanced.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: morbius
Date: 2012-10-24 14:39
Interesting post. How did you get your data for anylizing the vibrations of reeds? If I understand you correctly, you contend that there should be no side to side vibration of the reed. How so? My understanding is that there are, in fact, two different vibrations going on at the same time... a side to side vibration (balance of the reed) and a tip to heel vibration (hence the term: point of resistance. It is this second vibration that has most to do with the cut of the reed (why I perfer the Morre/Gonzalez model) and the facing of the mouthpiece and how they match up. The wild card in all this is the density of the cane and where it is in the aging process. Like an astrology chart, all things have to line up: mouthpiece/reed profile, balance of the reed, both horazontally and vertically, where the point of resistance is with respect to the tip on a given mouthpiece, how much or how little embouchure pressure a player exerts on the reed. Any variation in any one of these things can detract from the performance of a given reed. I would be interested in your comments. (By the way, I play on a Kasper mouthpiece, refaced by Greg Smith and Gonzalez 3.25 FOF reeds .. the Morre profile, but I'm going back to making my own on a Dual, as the quality has recently deteriorated).
John Dorch
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