 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-02-27 22:50
After my lesson last Saturday, I felt that there was the beginning of a transformation of the relationship between my clarinet teacher and I. A really positive one--one of mutual understanding and respect. There were several clues that it was about to happen. One is that we had given each other our best at each lesson for several months now. Two, he offered me a ride part of the way home, which he never did before, even when he was leaving after the lesson and heading in my direction. Three, while he was giving me a ride, we ended up talking about much deeper primarily musical issues he probably does not talk with other students. Fourth, he asked me to look at a problem he is having with his computer, which was printing from a website that he said works fine in Windows but not on his Mac.
Of course, there are other things going for us as well. We share similar musical and personal philosophies. His teaching style matches my learning style (or at least, that he's learned how to teach given various learning styles). Our personalities work well together. We're very open and honest with each other. We are finding out about each other's non-musical lives. We understand each other's jokes. And more that I can't think of right now.
To what extent have those of you with a teacher become friends, especially when it does not interfere with the teaching relationship?
Meri
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-02-27 22:56
I feel the same way about my current teacher, the primary difference is that I'm in my 40's, she's (celebrating the anniversary of ) 29 and most of her students are grade-school age.
Music has no smell, nor does it really have an age. When a good student applies effort and gets results, particularly as a result of coaching, teachers feel justifiable pride.
Congratulations, I hope you make more friends in the field. Musicians are an intriguing bunch, even the ones that do something else for a living.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-02-27 23:30
Becoming friends with your Teacher???? ... like anything it depends. I would hope that we would *ALL* be a friend to our Teacher, & vice-versa.
The following thoughts come to mind:
A lot (as Anji stated "between his lines") has to do with age. Did Stanley Hasty deal with his students as friends sharing a friendship? NO, I doubt it. Were his students found to be his friends in LATER years? Yes, without a doubt.
My daughter is 15. IMO, it wouldn't serve any purpose for het to carry-on a personal relationship with her Teacher, regardless of her Teacher's sex -- regardless of situation. If my daughter was 25 & a grad student. It might be OK. A lot depends on the individuals involved.
A Teacher is charged with so MANY responsibilities. I was a college professor for six (6) years. Because of the type of study involved, I needed to maintain a distance --- so I could teach difficult material, assign large amounts of homework & study, & so that when a student had a difficult time I could react with a certain amount of authority, which could possibly be lost if we were personal friends. Now that I am no longer teaching (15 years out) I *LOVE* to get call from former students. YES, I have personal relationships with some. BUT, they are grown up now.
It is possible to have mutual respect without a personal relationship. Everybody has plenty of time to growup & if a personal relationship is in the cards, it will keep until an appropriate (future) time. If Teacher & student are at appropriate positions in life & study, its a fine thing --- a real win-win.
Good luck.
mw
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-02-27 23:35
I used to be a guitar teacher (private lessons) and regret having not seen some of my favorite students socially since I quit. I used to go roller skating with one and we'd go to each others Christmas parties. I just ran into another at the library just last week and we are planning on going out to dinner together. I used to go to her house for dinner and pleasant evenings many years ago. I really look forward to catching up. I used to have a social group of little guitarists to the house for music parties with my kids when I taught a children's course. I became fairly good friends with one of the moms who was an excellent flamenco guitarist. We attended some master classes together and complained about our husbands. You get the picture.
However, I detect that something is feeling funny about the whole thing to you...trust yourself.
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2001-02-28 05:36
My teacher and I get along great! Our relationship is strictly clarinet, but that has proven to encompass just about every subject. I'm comfortable around her playing-wise, so I feel like every lesson is very intensive, and I learn so much every week. I have had experiences with teachers with whom I did not get along, and that stymied the experience. I practice hard for my lessons because my current teacher inspires me to, but in the past, I haven't had the drive to improve because I felt like I wouldn't get anything out of the lesson anyway. (A bad attitude at the time -- I now feel like that year was wasted)
The student and teacher must be on the same wavelength with individual tutelage, otherwise efforts on both sides are fruitless. This is especially true with abstract concepts prevalent in music. Understanding these would be impossible if the teacher explained one way and the student interpreted the explanation as something else, if that makes sense .... miscommunication is what I'm getting at.
I suppose there is no reason to not get chummy with your teacher, but I wouldn't recommend taking up lesson time to discuss unrelated issues. In fact, there nothing wrong with staying on good terms with teachers who may one day be your colleagues in a professional world!
Melanie
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-02-28 11:13
Playing music well depends on not only technical aspects but also one's life experiences, individuality, passions. confidence as a complete person, perceptions of life, ability to relax, ability to feel, freedom to express emotion, etc, etc.
If the ground rules of diligence, cooperation, mutual respect, etc have been established, as they seem to have been in yours, then I think an overlay of friendship would provide an opportunity to enrich the learning/teaching experience for both you and your teacher by greater understanding of eachother's qualities and growth processes such as those listed above. One's music passsions cannot be divorced from the rest of one's life. It is good that both student and teacher fully understand where the other is 'coming from'.
Just monitor that efficient foundation you have established and be able to fall back into it should it become threatedned by the friendship.
We all need understanding friends. Your teacher is in a good position to understand you - and vice versa.
When my students were my friends we both grew far more. All the best!
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-02-28 15:24
Meri--
It is good that you are on friendly terms with your teacher and are able to communicate with him, but, reading between the lines, it sounds as if things might be getting a little more involved than that. I assume you are in high school and your teacher is at least in his twenties, if not older. Be careful about developing a crush or too close of a relationship with your teacher. It would be very easy for things to get out of hand and for you to get hurt or worse. Sure, being older, he is more mature than the guys in school and as such, may be more attractive to you. But it is still not a good idea for a high school girl to develop too deep of a relationship with an older man. If things are headed in this direction, talk to a trusted adult, such as a counselor, minister, etc. about it.
If I have read things wrong, I sincerely apologize. I am just concerned.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-02-28 17:11
I, too, see warning flags waving all over your post, Meri.
I've seen this play out more than once in real life situations. I've been around a while.
Please consider what Don just wrote. I hope you'll take it to heart.
ron b
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-02-28 18:15
Don and Rob:
First, I'm in my 20's (22, actually), a college student in 4th year. Second, I have a boyfriend, and he knows about that. Third, he's got a girlfriend, and I've met her. Fourth, I've been in bad relationships, and got out of them.
Meri
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-02-28 20:39
Fraid I'm seeing the warning signs, too. The biggie is that you even asked the question. If everything was totally okay and you were comfortable with it, then there would be nothing to ask about.
Him giving you a ride and taking about personal things sounds like the beginning of a romance, but I think you need to go slow especially since getting together with him would mean both of you breaking up with somebody. If he wanted to do something with you and keep it a secret then that would be a huge red flag to me. If he is on the up and up then he won't be asking you to keep secrets for him. It would be a good sign if he is comfortable around your friends, he introduces you to his friends and he wants to go places with you in public where you might see people you know.
You say how old you are but not how old the teacher is. Is he a lot older than you? There's always some danger with a relationship between an older authority figure like a teacher and a student who is not out of school yet and still young even though an adult. Some teachers are sort of Don Juans going from one student to another. It's easy for them because students come and go. Also the clever Casanovas are real careful never to mess with anybody under age that would get them in trouble. Each student thinks they're special. It is really hurtful when they start finding out about the others. I'm not saying that's what's up with this teacher. Obviously I don;t know and I wouldn't want to insult him. I am just going by the fact that something about all this made you think you needed to ask strangers on a bulletin board about something this personal. Something is bothering you, so you need to ask yourself the hard questions and figure out what it is, before you get in deeper.
Maybe he is the most wonderful guy in the world and who knows, you might live happily ever after, but just go slow and make sure you know for sure what's really going on all the time, instead of getting caught up in the moment.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-02-28 21:29
Let me make a few things clear to you all:
1) I am not naiive. If it gets to the point where he wants to be more than friends, I am out of there. No second chances.
2) Second, the reason I asked the question was to find out if others on this BBoard have similar experiences, not because anything was bothering me. It just felt a little funny, but in a good way.
3) Some of you are seeing things that are probably not really there.
4) If he had any romantic interest in me, (which I doubt) I think I've discouraged it, since he knows that I have a boyfriend.
I hope this clarifies things.
Meri
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-02-28 22:09
Meri,
It sounds to me like everything is really OK. I remember back to when I graduated from college one of the more difficult things for me was to make the transition from being a "student" to being an "equal" with the people I was working with. When I got my first job out of college, one of my co-workers was substantially older than I was but had a very similar position. It was very difficult for me to break the habit of calling someone so much my senior in years by (in this case) "Mr. McDill." The whole office about died laughing when I addressed him so formally. I had to become accustomed to using his first name. It seems to me that you are perhaps in a similar position of moving out of the "student" world. It is a bit disconcerting to have to learn new patterns of interaction but is a necessary transition from the university environment to the outside world.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-03-01 04:55
With no implied comment about the origional post intended, it might be good to be aware that romantic/ sexual advances/relationships do on occasion develop between students and teachers. These are often emotionally harmful or manipulative, usually ethically wrong for the teacher, sometimes illegal depending on ages and other circumstances.
I suspect such relationships were more tollerated when I was in college 30 years ago than they are now. I did witness such occurances three times in college.
The first incident involved my finding out that my professor (and orchestra director) and I were involved with the same woman. She was my age (20 then) he was 25 years older and married (though not for long!) I ended my relationship, and was transfering schools anyway.
The second involved a friend's girlfriend, he was out of town and she asked me to help her as her physics professor was following her. (We hadn't heard of "stalking" then.) Sure enough, I walked her back to her dorm while the prof followed us all over campus in his VW bug. She dropped his class, and her boyfriend had words with the prof which ended the problem.
The third incident involved my now wife of almost 27 years. We were then newly engaged, her boss, a professor, for a work study job was hitting on her and wouldn't take no for an answer. She asked me to pick her up at work and just say hello to him. It was very low key and fortunately the prof was a quick learner. She kept the job and we still exchange Christmas cards with he and his wife.
I guess the point is simply to be careful about such relationships.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-03-01 13:08
To restate what I said in my earlier post, if I have read things wrong, I sincerely apologize.
Nothing wrong with being friends, if everything is above board and out in the open. If this is the case, the only problem I see is that if you become peers in your mind, your teacher may lose some of his authority with you. This is a much more extreme example than that of a music teacher, but I wouldn't want to go to a doctor whom I knew too personally - I'd be questioning his judgement too much.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-03-01 17:20
Don Poulsen said:
" .... the only problem I see is that if you become peers in your mind, your teacher may lose some of his authority with you ...."
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YES, exactly!
I tend to look at things in ABSOLUTE terms. If something *could " affect a student negatively, it shouldn't occur. Period.
I am sorry, but everybody at a young age wants to be different ... smarter, more observant, more mature, or less likely to err. WE WERE ALL THAT WAY!
[and, some of us still haven't changed]
They say that "if you don't learn from history, you are destined to relive it".
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-01 22:02
In a teacher/pupil situation there is no need for authority if excellent ommunication and mutual cooperation are at the core of the relationship. The two CAN go on a journey together; after all they both have the same destination.
It is not as if meri is a toddler!!
If we avoided everything that COULD affect us negatively we would do absolutely nothing. Those who take small or even large risks through life are those who grow most. Those who have grown most have the experience, wisdom, self-esteem, and skills to confidently take on new risks. Live life!
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-03-02 14:19
Gordon, by losing authority, I mean that she may lose some respect for his expertise and opinions. Once you start discounting what your teacher tells you, the learning process is hindered. I'm not saying that teachers are infallible and their opinions shouldn't be occasionally questioned, but once a teacher loses all credibility, (s)he ceases being a teacher. This applies to teachers of college students and adults as well as to those of toddlers.
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Author: Jnkmnalwysrngs2x
Date: 2001-03-02 21:41
Teaching without Authority doesn't work. PERIOD.
Authority does *NOT* obviate excellent communication or mutual cooperation between student & student.
No one accused Meri of being a toddler. At 22. she is an adult. However, its doubtful that she is not an experienced, polished veteran of life. She has the rest of a long life to achieve that end of things, as it should be.
We all have our own philosophy & opinions.
Personally, I would have no desire to pay for my child's College Education, in addition to paying for private lessons & sheet music ... and then find that she had a close friendship-kinship with one of his or hers professors. I waould want 1 thing thatg would be concentration on the learning experience so that my child could maximize his or her career opportunities.
I doubt very seriously that I am in a minority. EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL.
I taught at a (major, rated top 100) U.S. University for six (6) years. (I also continue to teach my peers on a National scale in my profession) I can tell you that fraternizing with a 22 y/o student would not be looked upon in a favorable light by any university administrative officials, (thats a polite way of saying "sorry no contract extension") considering the difference in age that is present in our "test case".
This type of behavior could also affect OTHER students. No one needs a diversion or distraction.
I think there is an _absolute_ need for AUTHORITY at the College teaching (& lower) educational level. Now, just because there is authority vested in a teacher or professor there is no loss or disrespect of a student rights.
Don is EXACTLY right (again) in his examples of why AUTHORITY is important.
mw
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Author: Jnkmnalwysrngs2x
Date: 2001-03-02 21:43
The 2nd paragraph in my response above should read:
-------------------------------------
Authority does *NOT* obviate excellent communication or mutual cooperation between student & teacher.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-03-02 22:21
A few more things to make clear:
1) I have not discounted what he has been teaching me. Never have. The teacher-student relationship, in terms of my learning to play this instrument better, comes first. It will as long as he's teaching me. Outside the lesson it can be different, for the first two reasons I mention below.
2) He is not affliated with any of our city's musicial institutions (although he used to be; I won't mention the reasons--and it's *not* that he got fired)
3) Even if he was affiliated, I'm not a music major, and I would be at a different university campus (assuming he taught at the same university I went to school), since the music faculty is on the main campus, and I am not a student of that one.
4) He may have no ulterior motive, especially when you consider I may be the only knowledgeable Mac person he knows, he is interested in getting to know his students as people, and that I could be one of the few people he knows is interested in deeper musical issues and willing to talk about them. Hence some of you could be seeing things that are not there.
5) I wonder how many of you warning about the supposed dangers have any deep, close personal relationships.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-02 23:19
Meri wrote:
> 5) I wonder how many of you warning about the supposed dangers
> have any deep, close personal relationships.
I would say that many of us (even those of us who have been silent but see some possible problems) have had "deep, close" relationships, both romantic and platonic. Could it be that some of us see the world through jaundiced eyes? I'm sure that's true. Yet other of us just might have a few (decades!) more experience in seeing how these things come out.
The world is an interesting place; sometimes you have to step back to see what's really going on, and it may or may not be what you thought it was.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-03 02:41
I missed out on so much of the enrichment that life had to offer - through fear. Fear of exploring that which I did not have total control of. Fear of taking control of the direction of my own life. I think we do a disservice to a "well together" young person by projecting our fears on them. Sure there are nasty things in this world, but that is no reason to live in an ice cave.
The need for authority - both to give and to receive, seems to me to be related to insecurity and lack of personal direction.
I do not accept that my doctor has authority over me. We work together as equals, both contributing, aware of eachother's limitations, for the common cause of maintaining my quality of life in every aspect related to health (and his professional growth). We have a friendly relaionship because this makes the process more successful.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-03 03:41
Gordon,
In Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> I missed out on so much of the enrichment that life had
> to offer - through fear. Fear of exploring that which I did
> not have total control of. Fear of taking control of the
> direction of my own life. I think we do a disservice to a
> "well together" young person by projecting our fears on them.
> Sure there are nasty things in this world, but that is no
> reason to live in an ice cave.
No one has intimated that, at least as I see it. Knowing what you're doing, conciously, is a lot better than not knowing what's happening and then finding out you're over your head. All we're saying is "keep your eyes open and your wits about you".
> The need for authority - both to give and to receive, seems to
> me to be related to insecurity and lack of personal direction.
I'd say generally that's bull, but I'm too polite to remark on it.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-03-03 06:42
Meri, quite frankly, I never questioned your Teacher's competence or his station in life. I had the feeling that that you were pleased with the teaching part of things, and that is good enough for me. Had there been a problem with that, I think you would have addressed it, etc.
But really, that doesn't get to the heart of the issue. The issue is whether a teacher who is twice a young (adult) student's age should become involved personally with the student they are teaching.
Meri said:
"I wonder how many of you warning about the supposed dangers have any deep, close personal relationships."
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I think everyone who has posted here has done so out of care and respect for other human beings ... immediately, that concern & care was for you, Meri. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of Sneezy participants who posted here .... *if not all*, have had deep, close personal relationships.
To my way of thinking, you have been honored with their concern & care.
Best of luck.
mw
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-03-03 07:31
Well, I guess I should not have gone roller skating with Jody, my guitar student.
Of course, I was just your neighborhood hack teacher, great for starting you out.
I don't think any of them had any illusions of my being some goddess of guitar, but
I did help many people learn. I was authoritative in lessons, I knew what I was doing.
I made friends witha few male students too, less common for me than other women.
I had couples as students, some of whom I did stuff with (Jerry and Junko and I all tried juggling for a while - together, it was really fun). I used to sing harmony with another student, after she moved on from lessons (I did improve her guitar playing)
Did I do something terrible?
I am certain that it is the fear of romantic misuse driving this thread.
Men and women (lets not worry about all the other permutations just now) spending time together can fall in love, sometimes just one sided and bad. But sometimes its good.
My children's paternal grandparents met in a university class HE TAUGHT, and celebrated 50 years together a while back! He's no slime, he's a renoun bio-chemist and she also became a professor after the kids grew up at bit. I don't know where else he would have met the right woman really.
Back to Meri,
I too sense an excitement about your post
Meri...so just keep your eyes open. Although we've only met through words, people here (at least me) want your happiness.
Sincerely - Ginny
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-03 10:14
I like your post. Ginny.
Meri, you sure are a topic starter! Both this one and 'your' other one "The Self-Taught Teacher" are in the top 2 or 3 of the last 140 odd threads for stimulating discussion. What's next?
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-03-04 00:45
Gordon, I believe the word "authority" is being interpretted differently by different people. What I mean by authority is in the sense of expertise as in "Ken Shaw appears to be an authority on the art of clarinet playing," not in the sense of control as in "Mark Charette is the webmaster and has authority over what is posted here." (Forgive me, Ken and Mark for using you as examples.) I still believe that familiarity undermines this type of authority. (Ask any parent.) The Bible even addresses this, as when Jesus observed that "no prophet is accepted in his hometown." (Luke 4:24)
To use the doctor example to once more try to clarify what I was saying about authority, I like to think that someone who is helping care for my health has a certain level of expertise. If I get to know that person personally, and see his/her fallibility in other areas of life, I may lose some of my confidence in his/her ability to make judgements regarding the treatment of my health.
Meri, any advice given here was out of concern for you. You had some reason to ask the question and we have tried to give our opinions based solely on your description of the situation, since none of us know you or anyone else concerned personally. Much of what was stated may have related to worst-case possibilities. Your situation may differ from what we imagine, but at least be aware of our concerns. None of it was meant as a judgement of you. At this point, you may do as you like with the advice. Best wishes in your clarinet playing.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-03-05 21:06
This is, hopefully, going to be the final word on this topic.
With my initial posting, I was expecting a postive reaction, but I got quite the opposite.
I wonder how many of you have heard of Occam's razor, which is that the simplest, most logical, explanation is usually the correct one? The simplest explanation for my teacher's actions is not that he is a freak, who does bad things to his students. I have mentioned the simplest explanations in a previous posting.
My teacher and I only know each other because of a common friend, who when getting us together took into account a number of factors between us. Therefore, my teacher would likely be comfortable knowing that I know a few of his musical colleagues. After all, why would a common friend get two people together so that one of his friends could hurt another one of his friends, and risk being held at least partly accountable?
Finally, is it not natural that two people who like each other, give each other their best, and have more in common than a musical instrument want to become friends? Of course! As long as both the student and the teacher understand that the teacher-student relationship comes first, there shouldn't be a problem with teachers and students becoming friends, especially in a non-school-based situation.
Meri
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-05 23:32
Meri wrote:
>
> > With my initial posting, I was expecting a postive reaction,
> but I got quite the opposite.
Which, of course, is an interesting expectation in and of itself ...
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-03-06 12:41
If all you expected was a positive reaction then why ask the question? You wanted to boast about attracting your teacher? You only wanted people to tell you what you wanted to hear? Think about it....
You know it's funny, I started out by worrying about the student, but now I'm thinking sometimes it's the student who comes on to the teacher, and I'm starting to worry about the teacher!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-06 19:47
Well Cass, perhaps it is good that your mind is turning the tables, because it highlights the extent of the groin-centred, predatory undetones that so many posts have introduced, as if this was what the thread was about.
I believe the thread started at a far more sophisticated level than that and has been repeatedly dragged down by those whose minds do not seem aware that there other quality elements in life. It is sad to see this preoccupation as a response to a post on friendship, not predation. It does little to indicate to a possibly disillusioned young adult that there is worth and substance in an older generation. Perhaps some of the "caring" expressed in previous posts is a depressing, I-want-to-feel-good-about-giving-it euphemism for advice on how to stop living. Meri has a life and she is able to handle it. It is cruel to try to drag her to bland, passion-less mediocrity in order that she can be a fellow sheep.
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Author: lynn
Date: 2001-03-08 01:17
I have to laugh at all this....LOL Being friends with your teacher CAN lead to marriage. 
I married my teacher (ok, he was only my teacher for a year - 20+ years ago when I was in grad school) three years ago.
SO I can tell you from experience that stuff DOES happen. It might take 20 years, but yep, it does happen.
Lynn
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